Author: consideringthebibletogether

Jesus in Hell? Response to a Brother

2020-01-24

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Brother

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my blog, “Did Jesus go to HELL?” I had been looking forward to your comments since Monday. Many of your points were well stated and caused me to look at some of the post again.

I would like to clarify a few items. I may have said or written something that was not clear and I would like to correct that. With that said, I have taken your comments (in blue) and inserted my thoughts for your consideration.

With all due respect. It is written… you have a copy of scripture. I read some of it to you when we talked. I believe in a plain normal grammatical historical plenary interpretation

Plain
- When you mention plain interpretation of scripture, I assume that you are referring to a literal reading of scripture. In many portions of the Word, I would agree with you. Some passages give me pause though.
  - When Acts 2 speaks of tongues of fire, would you understand it to be literal fire?
  - I am sure you do not consider the Messiah to be a door, or a sheep, or a light
  - I think the apostles and prophets spoke to their audience in a manner that would communicate clearly to them, in their culture, language, social structure and religion. It is our labor to try to decipher their message from that environment, and not to read the Word as if it has been written for 21^st century American believers. That just seems a bit provincial.
- Normal
  - I looked up normal for a definition and found
    - conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural
  - I would appreciate a little clarification on what you mean when you say normal. It’s almost as if the other terms in this description is defining your “normal” reading of Scripture
- Grammatical
  - Definition for grammatical
    - Of or relating to grammar, Conforming to the rules of grammar:
  - I assume you are describing your method of Bible interpretation/understanding as being different than my efforts. I tend to analyze a passage through word studies, the flow of the sentence structure and the context of the sentence/verse/paragraph I am studying. I think I am on the same page as you on this.
- Historical
  - I believe the historical context of the passage when spoken/written is critical to understanding the message. As an example, when Jesus spoke of thine eye being evil, I used to think He was referring to a wickedness of some sort.

Matt 6:23
but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

What does it mean “if your eye is bad”? Could it refer to a murderous intent, wicked thoughts or evil schemes? I never really understood this verse until I checked the historical background in Deuteronomy 15:9

Deuteronomy 15:9
Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the LORD against you, and you be guilty of sin.

Deuteronomy refers to “…your eye look grudgingly”. The most common translation of this hebrew word is “evil”.

When I read Matthew 6:23, I assumed I understood the phrase “if your eye is bad”. But when I studied the historical background of the phrase, and how it relates to the audience Jesus was immediately addressing, the application for my life becomes so much clearer. So I would heartily agree that the historical interpretation of any passage is critical

Plenary
- If by plenary, you mean that the canon of Scripture is complete (plenary = full), I would also agree.

If we don’t believe the scripture itself when read, how can we expound upon deeper truth?

I think we need to understand the Scripture (as much as possible) in order to believe it. I consider belief/faith an action word Gal 5:6 – For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

and not mental consent, and therefore the day to day decisions I make, exercising my faith/belief has to come from an understanding of the message God has provided.

If Christ went to the grave and that’s it. We are still dead in trespasses and sins.

I do not recall saying that Christ went simply to the grave. If I did, I spoke wrongly. What I was considering in the blog post was whether the Messiah went to hell, ie the place of torment. The few NT passages that seem to speak of the Messiah going to hell are not convincing to me in my study.

What is the point as Paul said in 1 Cor 15? The early church got it right historically as I told you Saturday. I stand with them even though the “Soli Scripta” Scripture alone speaks for itself.

Sola Scriptura is what I am trying to do as I study. I seek to find how the Scripture interprets itself, and in the blog, I made mention of a few Old Testament passages that may supply hints as to what the apostles were pointing to.

An example was the “lowest parts of the earth” phrase that Paul used in Ephesians. The OT supplied three possibilities for understanding what Paul meant when he wrote “the lower parts of the earth”

Regarding the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15) I feel you still consider my thoughts to be of denial of the resurrection. I am not sure where you get that from, but let me assure you that I believe in the bodily resurrection more now than when I first believed.

What is the point of judgment if you are going to be forgiven anyways?

Judgement (krino and its compunds – anakrino, diakrino ) have many shades of meaning, from simply to “discern” all the way to “condemn.” To judge (krites and its compounds – dikastēs, kritērion) defines the one judging.

You surely will agree that at the believer’s judgement, condemnation is not considered. Also, we who have been forgiven, will be judged.

New Testament (Greek) for “judge”
G350	ἀνακρίνω	anakrinō	examine, judge, ask question, search, discern
G1252	διακρίνω	diakrinō	doubt, judge, discern, contend, waver, misc
G1348	δικαστής	dikastēs	judge
G2919	κρίνω	krinō	judge, determine, condemn, go to law, call in question, esteem, misc
G2922	κριτήριον	kritērion	to judge, judgment, judgment seat
G2923	κριτής	kritēs	judge, Judge

New Testament (Greek) for “condemn”
G176	ἀκατάγνωστος	akatagnōstos	cannot be condemned
G178	ἀκατάκριτος	akatakritos	uncondemned
G843	αὐτοκατάκριτος	autokatakritos	condemned
G2607	καταγινώσκω	kataginōskō	condemn, blame
G2613	καταδικάζω	katadikazō	condemn
G2631	κατάκριμα	katakrima	condemnation
G2632	κατακρίνω	katakrinō	condemn, damn
G2633	κατάκρισις	katakrisis	condemnation, condemn
G2917	κρίμα	krima	judgment, damnation, condemnation, be condemned, go to law, avenge
G2919	κρίνω	krinō	judge, determine, condemn, go to law, call in question, esteem, misc
G2920	κρίσις	krisis	judgment, damnation, accusation, condemnation
G5272	ὑπόκρισις	hypokrisis	hypocrisy, dissimulation, condemnation
G6048	καταδίκη	katadikē	sentence of condemnation

Judgement has an implication of separation, or even of making a determination between right and wrong. Katakrino is the term that strictly refers to condemnation, and at that, I am not sure if there is a time element associated with it. By that I mean, the word itself simply means condemn, not necessarily condemn forever. The context may supply that information, but I do not see where the word itself carried a time element.

Katakrino As a matter of fact, it looks like men do a lot of the condemning (ie the men of Ninevah, the Queen of the South, even ourselves (Rom 2:1, 14:23)). Other occurrences in the New Testament speak of the Messiah receiving condemnation. One time the Messiah spoke on condemning, but that He would not condemn the sinner. He is something else, eh? (John 8:10-11)

The list may be found at the end of this post (if of interest).

(As I am studying this concept of judgment, I have found a much larger body of data in the New Testament than first reviewed. In the interest of brevity, I will leave the above mini-study as is, know that it is incomplete, and I will return to it.)

So When Jesus said it was better for Judas not to have been born, (Matthew 26:24, Mark 14:21) woe doesn’t have any significance if there is no consequences for betraying the Son of the living God.?

I am going to assume the consequence you are referring to above is Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)

Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”
Mark 14:21
For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

I understand your point, but note that the Messiah said “it would have been better” for Judas to not exist than to be born, not “Judas will burn in hell forever”

“Better” is a comparative term. If I said “I am better than Joe” this doesn’t mean I am equal to the great apostle Paul. Better simply compares to conditions, but it does not supply the extent of the difference between the two things being compared. In other words, Judas destiny was defined as being less than the condition of existing (ie being born). A negative condition.

So, if the Scriptures teaches ECT, Jesus may have been hinting at Judas’ destiny. (A negative condition!)

If He meant something else, (like living and dying under the guilt of condemning a just man), that is also possible. (Also a negative condition!)

Both of these destinies (I am sure there are additional destinies that may be possible for Judas) for Judas would surely fit the description Jesus provides of “not existing”

At this point in my studies, to demand ECT is taught in this passage would be considered eisegesis. The verse does not clearly inform us of Judas destiny, other than being a negative condition.

Or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

One verse in the New Testament speaks of blasphemy against the Spirit

Matthew 12:31
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

There are multiple ways to understand this passage. I will address this passage in a future post as a separate topic.

Or the woes of Matthew 23.

Greater condemnation, v.33-how will they escape the condemnation of Hell?

I guess you don’t believe what Jesus said in v.35 either?

No purgatory in Scripture.

No escaping the judgment of God having received the knowledge of the truth( Hebrews 10:26-31).

If you believe otherwise with all due respect I pity you.

I appreciated this brothers challenge to my thinking, and wish him the best. Since our discussion, he has found something in me that is unacceptable to associate with. I have reached out to him a number of times, but he is a busy family man and was not available. I hope that in the near future, I will have the opportunity to find peace in our relationship.

If you have comments or I have missed an imprtant concept, ignored a Bible passage or represented a teaching incorrectly, let me know. Look down a few inches and you will find a convenient contact form for you to use!

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Passages containing the greek word “Katakrino”

Matt 12:41	The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn ^G2632 it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Matt 12:42	The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn ^G2632 it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Matt 20:18	Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn ^G2632 him to death,
Matt 27:3	Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, ^G2632 repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mark 10:33	Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn ^G2632 him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mark 14:64	Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned ^G2632 him to be guilty of death.
Mark 16:16	He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ^G2632
Luke 11:31	The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn ^G2632 them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Luke 11:32	The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn ^G2632 it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
John 8:10	When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath ^G2632 no man condemned ^G2632 thee?
John 8:11	She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do ^G2632I condemn ^G2632 thee: go, and sin no more.
Rom 2:1	Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest ^G2632 thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 8:3	For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned ^G2632 sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:34	Who is he that condemneth? ^G2632 It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 14:23	And he that doubteth is damned ^G2632 if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Cor 11:32	But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should ^G2632 not be condemned ^G2632 with the world.
Heb 11:7	By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned ^G2632 the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
James 5:9	Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: ^G2632 behold, the judge standeth before the door.
2Peter 2:6	And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned ^G2632 them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

God – What is HE like?

2020-01-22
When the Master arrived on earth, He twisted everyone’s concept of God.

Occasionally, as I surf online and find articles of interest, I will download them, hoping I will eventually read them at an appropriate time.

An appropriate time just happened, and I fell into the following list I had saved from one of my surfing excursions. Although the intent of the author is to give scriptural credence to the belief of Salvation of All through Jesus Christ, the list hit me with how different the Master is from me.

Read the verses below, (I have left the authors comments in for effect) and consider Who He is. (and who we are not.)

1 Tim 2:4

God will have all to be saved.

Can His will be thwarted?

1 Tim 2:4

God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth

Will His desire come to pass?

1 Tim 2:6

Salvation of all is testified in due time

Are we judging God before due time?

Jn 12:47

Jesus came to save all

Will He succeed?

Eph 1:11

God works all after the counsel of His will

Can your will overcome His?

Jn 4:42

Jesus is Savior of the world

Can He be Savior of all without saving all?

1 Jn 4:14

Jesus is Savior of the world

Why don’t we believe it?

Jn 12:32

Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself

To roast or to love?

Col 1:16

By Him all were created

Will He lose a part of His creation?

Rm 5:15-21

In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live

The same all?

1Cor 15:22

In Adam all die, in Christ all live

Again, the same all?

Eph 1:10

All come into Him at the fullness of times

Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?

Phl 2:9-11

Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord

Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?

1 Cor 12:3

Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit

See what I mean?

Rm 11:26

All Israel will be saved

But most Jews don’t believe yet!

Acts 3:20,21

Restitution of all

How plain can you get?

Luke 2:10

Jesus will be joy to all people

Is there joy is “hell”?

Heb 8:11,12

All will know God

How long, O Lord?

Eph 2:7

His grace shown in the ages to come

Have we judged Him before the time?

Titus 2:11

Grace has appeared to all

Experientially to prophetically?

Rm 8:19-21

Creation set at liberty

How much of creation?

Col 1:20

All reconciled unto God

There’s that word “all” again.

1Cor 4:5

All will have praise of God

What for?

Jms 5:11

End of the Lord is full of mercy

Is “hell” mercy?

Rev 15:4

All nations worship when God’s judgments are seen

Could His judgment be mercy?

Rm 11:32

All subject to unbelief,

mercy on all All?

Rm 11:36

All out of, through, and into Him

All into Him?

Eph 4:10

Jesus will fill all things

Including “hell?”

Rev 5:13

All creation seen praising God

Including Satan?

1Cor 15:28

God will be all in all

What does that mean, preacher?

Rev 21:4,5

No more tears, all things made new

“All” made new?

Jn 5:25

All dead who hear will live

How many will hear?

Jn 5:28

All in the grave will hear & come forth

How will the “righteous” judge, judge?

1 Cor 3:15

All saved, so as by fire

How can fire save you?

Mk 9:49

Everyone shall be salted with fire

Including you?

Rm 11:15

Reconciliation of the world

Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?

2 Cor 5:15

Jesus died for all

Did He die in vain?

Jn 8:29

Jesus always does what pleases His Father

What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)

Heb 1:2

Jesus is Heir of all things

Do “things” include people?

Jn 3:35

All has been given into Jesus’ hands

Can you accept this?

Jn 17:2

Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him

How many did the Father give Him?

Jn 13:35

The Father gave Him all things

Study the word “things” in the Greek.

1 Tim 4:9-11

Jesus is Savior of all!

Can’t seem to get away from that word “all.”

Heb. 7:25

Jesus is able to save to the uttermost

How far is “uttermost?”

1 Cor 15:26

Last enemy, death, will be destroyed

Including “lake of fire” which is “second death?”

Is 46:10

God will do all His pleasure

Does Old Testament agree with the New?

Gen 18:18

All families of the earth will be blessed

Here comes that word “all” again.

Dan 4:35

God’s will done in heaven and earth

What can defeat His will?

Ps 66:3,4

Enemies will submit to God

Can any stay rebellious in “hell?”

Ps 90:3

God turns man to destruction, then says return

How can one return from “destruction?”

Is 25:7

Will destroy veil spread over all nations

All nations?

Deut 32:39

He kills and makes alive

Kills to bring life?

Ps 33:15

God fashions all hearts

“All” hearts, including men like “Hitler?”

Prv 16:9

Man devises, God directs his steps

What about “free will?”

Prv 19:21

Man devises, but God’s counsel stands

So much for “free will.”

La 3:31,32

God will not cast off forever

Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)

Is 2:2

All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house

“All” nations?

Ps 86:9

All nations will worship Him

“All” nations!

Is 45:23

All descendants of Israel justified

Including the wicked ones?

Ps 138:4

All kings will praise God

Are you catching on?

Ps 65:2-4

All flesh will come to God

That sounds wondrous.

Ps 72:18

God only does wondrous things

I wish we would believe that.

Is 19:14,15

Egypt & Assyria will be restored

Really?

Ezk 16:55

Sodom will be restored to former estate

Sounds impossible.

Jer 32:17

Nothing is too difficult for Him

Nothing? No, nothing!

Ps 22:27

All ends of the earth will turn to Him

For what purpose?

Ps 22:27

All families will worship before Him

Praise His name!

Ps 145:9

He is good to all

Including your worst enemies.

Ps 145:9

His mercies are over all his works

Let’s start believing that.

Ps 145:14

He raises all who fall

Who hasn’t fallen in sin?

Ps 145:10

All His works will praise Him

For “eternal torment?”

Is 25:6

Lord makes a feast for all people

And you are invited.

Jer 32:35

Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire

This came from the carnal mind.

Jn 6:44

No one can come to Him unless He draws them

You can’t “chose” to follow Him.

Jn 12:32

I will draw all mankind unto Myself

Amen!!!

Ps 135:6

God does what pleases Him

If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

Drop me a line to discuss.

Personally, I find the volume of verses supplied above to be daunting, and somewhat revealing as to the lack of His character I have acquired in my walk with Him. He is so far above us and without equal!
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Sun Moon & Stars – Matthew 24:29

2020-01-20
A brother asked me about Matthew 24, you know, about the sun, moon and stars falling from heaven.

The passage goes like this…

Matthew 24:29

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Well, I told him what I thought and he seemed to consider my answer with some suspicion, almost as if I had my head on backwards. Don’t get me wrong – I appreciate the challenge, if only for my own learning and research. So off we go to the Word to consider passages that use the same terminology. Scripture interprets Scripture and we have to remember that the Master came to earth to fill the three offices of Prophet, Priest and King. As the preeminent Prophet, He was anchored in Old Testament thought and speech, communicating to an audience steeped in the Sacred Writings.

With that said, I have done a quick search for the three words “sun”, “moon”, and “stars” in the Old Testament, hoping to find a clue to base my understanding of the Lord’s message.

The full passages, from the Old Testament prophets, are found in the end notes of this post since they are somewhat lengthy, and I want to get to the meat of the matter.

The verses I found are
- Isaiah 13:10
- Ezekiel 32:7
- Joel 2: 10
- Joel 3:15
As an aside, as a young Christian, I believed that the New Testament was the “be all and end all” of everything I needed to be concerned about. The Old Testament was important, but we have more important information in the New Testament. I think that is like saying the roof of a house is more important than the walls of a house. How can I say that? Without the Old Testament, the New Testament would be completely hollowed out.

Consider

If all the Old Testament quotations and allusions were obliterated from the New Testament, the books would have no coherent message. Some single verses in Matthew 24, for example, refer to THREE Old Testament passages. Three passages crammed into one verse!!!*

Without the Old Testament, the Jewish nation (if you could argue that a Jewish nation would exist?) would have no history, culture or religious life that the Messiah could communicate within. The Old Testament set the context of the Master’s teaching and prophecies.

So with all that said, lets look at each of these passages.

First off, as a younger believer, (hey – I’m still young Jerry!) when I saw these type of Old Testament verses, I would consider them to all be referring to one event, and that event was the same event that Jesus prophesied of – the end of the world. I really didn’t consider the context of the passages because it just seemed so obvious. Maybe I was wrong. (Hint – Yup, I was wrong!)

Passage #1 Isaiah 13:10

Isaiah 13:10

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Lets see if Isaiah is directing this to anyone specific.

Isaiah 13

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

Chapter 13 is the beginning of a section in Isaiah directed to the nations. The first nation to be dealt with is the nation of Babylon.

But how is the Lord going to bring about this judgement?

Isaiah 13

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

The Lord musters the kingdoms of the nations. He even names them for us! Interesting side note that the Lord defines the force He is mustering as multiple nations. This is precisely what occurred when the nations of the Medes and the Persians, joined together to defeat Babylon. (The Medes became the dominant people group within this cooperative effort.)

Isaiah 13

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

The Medes and the Persians are the nations that the Lord used to obliterate the Babylonian empire, in one night!

So, in the midst of a passage where the Lord is speaking to a specific nation (Babylon) about other nation(s) (the Medes and Persians), He refers to the sun, moon and stars being darkened.

What gives?

Option 1 – Literal Darkening of the Sun Moon and Stars

During the siege, the smoke would be so heavy that all light would be obliterated from sight. Considering the poetic nature of so much of the Old Testament, this option doesn’t hold much weight in my mind. Especially since the takeover of Babylon was so dramatic and quick. In one night the nation fell and the Babylonian governing authorities were eliminated.

Not much to see here folks – Lets move along!!

Option 2 – Literal Dissolution of the Sun Moon and Stars

Obviously, the sun moon and stars were not darkened permanently or even temporarily. I have never found any record of the sun, moon, and stars being darkened during the siege of Babylon.

The stars did not literally cease to exist. I am thankful for the sun hanging around. I just can’t imagine being cold all the time! I left Canada for the warmth of Texas. I love da sun!

Option 3 – Symbolic Representation of Authorities

Story time!

A long time ago in a world far far away, before the Jewish nation was formed, a young boy had a dream. In this dream he referred to the sun moon and stars.

Genesis 37

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

When Israel (Jacob) heard this dream, he was shocked. As head of the family, Jacob was the authority over the entire clan. It was obvious that Joseph was stating that he would be the authority in the future. Jacob bowing to his Son? What arrogance! What pride! What accuracy!!

This dream greatly influenced the Jewish nation and the prophets took this phrase (sun moon and stars) and used it to describe earthly authorities of their time.

If so, and since Jesus was the greatest prophet ever, he may have been leaning on these passages when He spoke of the sun moon and stars being darkened in Matthew 24. (Hint – Isaiah 13 is accepted by most scholars as the passage Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:29)

With that, I will leave you with the remaining 3 passages. (I’m not gonna do all the work for you!)

Check it out (and consider!) to see if there is consistency in the interpretation I am suggesting.

*An example of three Old Testament verses referred to in one New Testament verse can be found in Matthew 24:15. That verse alludes to Daniel 8:13, Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11.

By the way, this isn’t all that rare in the New Testament! Don’t even get me thinking about Revelation – That is nuts!!!

Full Passages

Isaiah 13

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.

3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Ezekiel 32

1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net.

4 Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee.

5 And I will lay thy flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with thy height.

6 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.

7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.

10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall.

11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.

12 By the swords of the mighty will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.

13 I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them.

14 Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord GOD.

15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD.

16 This is the lamentation wherewith they shall lament her: the daughters of the nations shall lament her: they shall lament for her, even for Egypt, and for all her multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

Joel 2

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

Joel 3

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:

8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
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Did Jesus go to Hell?

2020-01-17
Did Jesus go to Hell?
What type of question is that?
Three passages seem to tell me that, between the crucifixion and the resurrection, Jesus actually descended into hell.
The passages are as follows.
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The popular teaching goes like this – the spirits are those of Noah’s generation that are in some type of prison at the time of Peter’s writing. The assumption is that at the time of being put to death in the flesh, Jesus preached to these spirits in prison, before the resurrection. To the disobedient, He confirmed their condemnation and to the righteous He declared His victory, and their subsequent being led out of the prison they are in. (See Eph 4:8-10 below for verses that seem to teach this scenario.)
Another interpretation is that he – Noah, during the construction of the ark, by the Spirit, preached unto the disobedient, who are now spirits in prison.
This seems to make sense to me, since:
- Whoever “He” is in verse 19, the power of the preaching was by the “Spirit”
- Peter refers to Noah in the very next verse.
- Peter is referring to a specific time frame – “while the ark was a preparing”
- Noah is described as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the souls in prison are described as disobedient.
The passage in 1 Peter in not conclusive, to say the least
Lets go on to the next passage and see if it sheds any additional light on this subject.
Acts 2:25-28
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
The passage of interest focuses on verse 27, where Peter quotes the 16th Psalm, declaring that the resurrection was prophesied.
A major assumption needs to be made if this verse is to teach that Jesus was in the traditional concept of hell. The term used in the Old Testament referring to this hell is Sheol, which by all accounts refers to the grave.
Even within this passage in Psalm 16 itself, with the use of Hebrew poetry (restating the same concept with different words) the psalmist describes what he means when he says “hell”. Hell seems to be synonymous, in this psalm, with corruption. It is commonly understood that Old Testament believers did not have a clear understanding of the afterlife, and Sheol simply meant the grave.
If this is true, then Peter is declaring the resurrection from the grave, not the resurrection from hell.
As an aside, a very interesting study, for those interested, is the number of times the apostles referred to hell in their preaching to the lost. It is true that Jesus preached on hell (gk term hades) very often, but why didn’t the apostles keep up the message? That particular topic is for another time!
Given the last two passages, and the possibility (probability) of alternative interpretations, is this teaching depending on assumptions instead of Bible teaching for support?
The last passage that seems to support the teaching that Jesus visited hell is the following.
Ephesians 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
When Paul mentions that He descended into the lower parts of the earth, is it a safe assumption that he meant hell? I taught that for decades and assumed it was without fault. After all, what else could he mean?
I have a greater appreciation for the Word, now that I have finally understood that Paul, along with the rest of the New Testament authors, were preaching the risen Christ from the Old Testament. When a passage like Ephesians 4:9 is compared with the Old Testament, and found to shed light on a weak assumption, I will gladly confess my error.
Consider what I found after a simple search.
Psalm 63:6-11
When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches.
Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.
My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me.
But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.
But the king shall rejoice in God; every one that sweareth by him shall glory: but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped.
This passage uses the very same phrase Paul uses, and seems to describe Sheol within the context. Simply defining the grave. Nothing to see here folks – lets move along!.
Isa 44:21 – 25
Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that preadeth abroad the earth by myself;
That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
Realizing Isaiah is using Hebrew poetry, the “lower parts of the earth” are coupled with “ye heavens”. The very next verse, Isaiah 44:24, is coupling heaven and earth, and seem to be defining the “lower parts of the earth” as simply “the earth”
At the very least, it would not prove that “the lower parts” are necessarily hell.
One other passage that I find amazing is the following.
Psa 139:12 – 16
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Based on the passage in Psalm 139:15, the lowest parts of the earth, are referring to the womb. This is an incredible passage in light of Ephesians.
Granted, it is not the exact phrase that Paul used in Ephesians 4:9, but it shows the difference between my independent interpretation (lower parts of the earth = hell), compared with Scripture interpreting Scripture.
In view of the previous three Old Testament verses, Ephesians 4:9 could be referring to
- “the grave” (Psa 63:9) – This interpretation seems to have some strength based on the passage in Acts.
- “the earth” (Isa 44:23) – This interpretation would coincide with the incarnation of the Messiah.
- “the womb” (Psalm 139:15) – This interpretation would also coincide with the incarnation of the Messiah.
I have also understood that Paul may be referring to the class of people Jesus came to be among, that is, the lower class. This is a possibility and a teaching that Paul has brought up in his writings before.
With all of this being said, I find there to be very little Biblical support for the popular teaching that Jesus visited our traditional concept of hell, ie. a holding place of suffering for the lost.
What think ye?
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Christian Accountability – Watch & Account

2020-01-15
What is Christian Accountability and is a Christian Accountable to Church Leadership?

This post will address the last two words in our word matrix.

WATCH & ACCOUNT

These words supply two characteristics of the man who persuades and leads the christian are revealed in this passage.

Lets review the passage and then discuss.

Hebrew 13

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I have emboldened the verse under consideration. The following posts will address Hebrews 13:17, and a considered review of critical words the apostle uses in exhorting the believers he is writing to.

Following is a matrix of words that need to be considered in understanding the teaching of Hebrews 13, especially verse 17. (See end of study for Strong’s full definitions.)

This next study will incorporate the last two words under consideration, due to both of them describing the christian leader being referred to in this verse

Hebrews 13:17

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Watching

As you can see from the context, the first characteristic of the christian leader is that he is “watching”. It is very interesting to me that this term has everything to do with being awake, alert, attentive. Attentive to “your” souls.

Is the “your” plural, that is, is the writer stating that the minister is concerned over the body of believers as a congregation, or is it more personal than that. Could it be that the writer is referring to individuals?

Am I too jaded when I question the watching of men over my soul when they do not even know my name?

How many times have I put myself under a man who has never known what the condition of my soul is, where I am at in my christian journey, whether I understand the gospel, whether I am in sin…..

I do know that there have been times when I was sure the minister was watching over my wallet!

In the future, I would like to address the general topic of a ministers relationship to support, but at this time, suffice it to say, I believe the Word does not give authority of one man over another in the delegation of that man’s gifts or talents.

What is my point?

This verse is describing a man who is giving of himself for the purpose of others. If taken literally, and I assume that it would play out this way, the godly christian minister would actually lose sleep over the condition of those he ministers to. This type of minister would be one I would gladly give deference to, and seek to be easily persuaded by faithful Bible teaching.

Account

The minister in this text is one who will give account of the believers he has ministered amongst to the Lord, at least in the last day. (Could it be that this minister is giving account of those he ministers to during his times with the Lord on a daily basis?)

It is funny to think that many in the church today advocate an accountability to each other to ensure faithfulness to God. This passage, (and the rest of scripture, I believe) does not advocate any type of primary horizontal accountability. Of course we are responsible to love and care for one-another. This is not accountability.

My accountability is to the One who owns me. My Father, not my brothers. Love the brotherhood, Fear God.

In His ministry, did not Jesus persuade the populace, even seeking to make those interested more curious by telling dark sayings and parables? He taught those who wanted to be taught, and lead a life that no man has ever led. He is One who we should gladly hear and obey. He is watching for our souls, and if you have a minister that exhibits these qualities in your life (professional or not) be thankful to the Master for him.
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Christian Accountability – Submit

2020-01-13
What is Christian Accountability & is a Christian Accountable to Church Leadership?

This post will address the third word in our word matrix.

SUBMIT

To submit to One is to understand His wishes and to accept them as your own.

Lets review the passage and then discuss.

Hebrew 13

When this question arises, ie. “Is a Christian accountable to Church Leaders?” invariably the passage in Hebrews 13 is referred to. Therefore, lets consider the passage.

Hebrews 13
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I have emboldened the verse under consideration. The following posts will address Hebrews 13:17, and a considered review of critical words the apostle uses in exhorting the believers he is writing to.

Following is a matrix of words that need to be considered in understanding the teaching of Hebrews 13, especially verse 17. (See end of study for Strong’s full definitions.)

The word of concern in our passage is used only once in the New Testament, and of course it is in Hebrew 13:17.

Hupeiko to resist no longer, but to give way, yield (of combatants) metaph. to yield to authority and admonition, to submit submit (one’s) self

The issue of authority is raised, by the inclusion of this word. The question that is of importance is

What is the authority that a believer is to yield to.

One possibility is that the elders are to be submitted to. This is correct to the point that believers are to submit to one another (Eph 5:21) and to consider one another above ourselves (Phil 2). I am not persuaded that this verse is giving any additional authority to any man simply because of a position in the church.

Another possibility is that the authority to be submitted to is the Word of God. I think this is the answer to our problem. And yet…

Thinking back, there were a group of folk that were very Biblical. Memorized vast amounts of the scripture (that they had!) and lived a very separated life. Always went to meeting, gave according to the scriptures and sought to obey every precept in their religion.

They ended up killing the Messiah.

I am not sure how this is gonna work out in my thinking, and if y’all can help me, it would sure be appreciated. It turns out that there is One who has authority, and I am trying to figger it out in relation to the Word of God.

He said ….”All authority has been given unto Me”

Lets consider one situation.

Jesus brings to our attention the time when David was on the run from Saul, and needed food for his following. We find the passage in Matthew 12

Matthew 12:1-8

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

How is it that Jesus would refer to a time in Davids life that he performed an unlawful deed, admittedly so, and then use it to justify His disciples actions (plucking and eating some “corn” as they traveled through the area.

The disciples were not doing anything opposed to what the Word was allowing.

Deuteronomy 23:25

When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour’s standing corn.

So why did Jesus bring up the incident with David? He could have easily rebuffed this complaint with the above passage. But I think Jesus was after bigger fish to fry. It has to do with ….

Da Sabbath

and the religious zealots affection for that special day.

Could Jesus be equating the the sabbath observance (even that which was prescribed in the Old Testament, not merely that which the pharisees had corrupted to its present state) to the ceremonial law describing the eating of the shew bread?

What about the priestly service overriding the observance of the sabbath?

Jesus took this incident and taught of a higher authority over the law, and as I read through the gospels, He seemingly rode this horse often!

So – what authority is applicable in the verse we are considering above (Heb 13) ? I am still trying to process this as I work through the epistles. It is a challenge. I know in the past, I have considered Paul to be the one to listen to, actually filtering out Jesus words by interpreting Paul’s words according to my desires.

I find it amazing that Jesus never abrogated a moral commandment, but those things that are least (ceremonial issues) had become the greatest with men, and Jesus was all about upsetting the apple cart!

Find following some additional greek words that the author to the Hebrews could have chosen to use in our text, but didn’t.

Hupotasso

to arrange under, to subordinate to subject, put in subjection to subject one’s self, obey to submit to one’s control to yield to one’s admonition or advice to obey, be subject A Greek military term meaning “to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader”. In non-military use,it was “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden”. submit (one’s) self unto5, submit (one’s) self to3, be in subjection unto2, put in subjection under1, miscellaneous12

Wow – glad he didn’t use this word in the text!

Dogmatizo

to decree, command, enjoin, lay down an ordinance submit…to decrees

I think we get our word “dogmatic” from this word! (Makes me consider whether being dogmatic is being Christ-like)

Douleuo

to be a slave, serve, do service of a nation in subjection to other nations metaph. to obey, submit to in a good sense, to yield obedience in a bad sense, of those who become slaves to some base power, to yield to, give one’s self up to

I like this possibility, seems to have a similar sense to hupeiko

Sunapago

to lead away with or together metaph. to be carried away with of a thing, i.e. by a thing, so as to experience with others the force of that which carries away to yield or submit one’s self to lowly things, conditions, employments: not to evade their power

Hupakouo

to listen, to harken of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter) to harken to a command to obey, be obedient to, submit to

End Notes – Strongs Definitions

G3982 πείθω peithō pi’-tho

A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): – agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

G2233 ἡγέομαι hēgeomai hayg-eh’-om-ahee

Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: – account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

G5226 ὑπείκω hupeikō hoop-i’-ko

From G5259 and εἴκω eikō (to yield, be “weak”); to surrender: – submit self.G69

ἀγρυπνέω agrupneō ag-roop-neh’-o

Ultimately from G1 (as negative particle) and G5258; to be sleepless, that is, keep awake: – watch.

G3056 λόγος logos log’-os

From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): – account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
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Christian Accountability – Rule

2020-01-10
What is Christian Accountability & Is a Christian Accountable to Church Leadership?

The Christian life is a life of submission and obedience to the Lord Jesus.

This post will address the second word in our word matrix.

RULE

The central word of the gospel when it comes to the claims of Christ. In a very real sense, Christian accountability is ultimately to Christ, and is the bedrock of all Christian accountability. But the issue is whether this accountability is transferred to church leaders, and if so, what does it look like?

Lets review the passage and then discuss.

Hebrew 13

When this question arises, ie. “Is a Christian accountable to Church Leaders?” invariably the passage in Hebrews 13 is referred to. Therefore, as a starting point, lets consider the passage.

Hebrews 13
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I have emboldened the verse under consideration. The following posts will address Hebrews 13:17, and a considered review of critical words the apostle uses in exhorting the believers he is writing to.

Following is a matrix of words that need to be considered in understanding the teaching of Hebrews 13, especially verse 17. (See end of study for Strong’s full definitions.)

RULE (hēgéomai)

The Greek term hegeomai is found in 27 verses in the New Testament,

Of the three occurrences of the term hegomai used in the New Testament translated as “have the rule over”, all three are in this chapter!

Hebrews 13:7

Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Hebrews 13:17

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Hebrews 13:24

Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

Of the two occurrences of the term hegomai used in the New Testament translated as “be governor”, one is referring to a political office, and one is referring to a governor of a ship

Matthew 27:23

And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

James 3:4

Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

It is interesting that the governor of the ship is small, unseen (underwater!) and in the back of the boat – but I don’t want to make too much of that!

One instance, where the term “hegeomai” is used in the New Testament, when associated with biblical church leadership is found in 1 Thess 5:13, where Paul connects “hegeomai” with love, and due to the leaders works sake.

1Th 5:13

And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Although the same term (hegomai) is used in the New Testament for political “rulers” and church “rulers”, it is evident that two points need to be clarified.

“Ruler”, when used in reference to church life may not be an accurate translation, given the alternative ways this Greek word could be translated, and the freaky way it is translated only in this set of verses. Remember – it is only translated “rule” in Hebrews 13 of the New Testament

Jesus Himself delineated a difference between the two types of leadership in Luke 22:25 (also Mark 10:43)

Luke 22:25-27

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth?is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Mark 10:42 – 45

But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

It is interesting also, that the term used to describe exercising lordship over a people, used by the Lord in verse 25, is kurieuo. (See below for definition of greek word.) And it is very interesting that Paul uses the very same term in 2 Cor 1:24, in relation to how believers are to relate to apostolic authority.

Many in the church seem to read this verse like this.

2 Corinthians 1:24 …we have dominion over your faith …

But is that what the apostle said?

2 Corinthians 1:24

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Notice that Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, uses this term in 2 Corinthians 1:24.

Now if any human had “dominion” (rulership?) over a group of Christians, I would imagine that all would agree that Paul did. But he denies any type of dominion over these believers. How crazy is that – Has he not heard how important it is for believers to be accountable to a leader? Something is definitely wrong here Paul!

Again, it is interesting that Paul seemed to have a bit of a problem with enforcing an authoritarian stance over his disciples (maybe cause they weren’t his disciples, they were His disciples)

1 Corinthians 16:12

As touching our brother Apollos, I greatly desired him to come unto you with the brethren: but his will was not at all to come at this time; but he will come when he shall have convenient time.

Notice that the great apostle Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, who talked directly to the Lord Jesus and was commissioned to bring in the gentile harvest, “greatly desired” Apollos to go with the brethren to the Corinthians, but Apollos didn’t want to.

WHAT?

What type of submission is that – Surely Paul reamed him out for not doing as he said. Maybe I will go study that passage out, and look for where Paul “bit his head off”

When I find it, I will let you know!

End Notes – Strongs Definitions

G3982 πείθω peithō pi’-tho

A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): – agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

G2233 ἡγέομαι hēgeomai hayg-eh’-om-ahee

Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: – account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

G5226 ὑπείκω hupeikō hoop-i’-ko

From G5259 and εἴκω eikō (to yield, be “weak”); to surrender: – submit self.

G69 ἀγρυπνέω agrupneō ag-roop-neh’-o

Ultimately from G1 (as negative particle) and G5258; to be sleepless, that is, keep awake: – watch.

G3056 λόγος logos log’-os

From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): – account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
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Christian Accountability – Obey

2020-01-08
What is Christian Accountability & Is a Christian

Accountable to Church Leadership?

The Christian life is a life of submission and obedience to the Lord Jesus.

This post will address the first word in our word matrix.

OBEY

The central word of the gospel when it comes to the claims of Christ. In a very real sense, Christian accountability is ultimately to Christ, and is the bedrock of all Christian accountability. But the issue is whether this accountability is transferred to church leaders, and if so, what does it look like?

Lets review the passage and then discuss.

Hebrews 13
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Following is a matrix of words that need to be considered in understanding the teaching of Hebrews 13, especially verse 17. (See end of study for Strong’s full definitions.)

OBEY (peítho)
A cursory glance through Strong’s definitions reveals that the prevalent meaning of peítho is not obey.

It seems the prevalent meaning is “to persuade” or “to be persuaded” As a matter of fact, if the three verses in Hebrews 13 were translated “to be persuaded”, the concept of obedience (in opposition to persuasion) in relation to this Greek word would disappear from the New Testament.

To be persuaded is a completely different concept than that of to simply obey! Of course the end result may “look” similar, (that of a believer conforming to the character of Christ) but I am thinking the method of achieving this end result is what is of concern to the Lord.

When someone brings to my attention a careful argument against some thinking that is predominant in my life, and is seeking to persuade me through the scriptures, I am (hopefully) more apt to accept the correction or rebuke.

When someone demands conformance due to his position in a organization, something inside me tends to ask “Why?” My sinful nature? I don’t know, but I don’t find much justification (in the Bible) for obedience to a mans demands simply due to his position within an organization.

Please understand. I am not advocating “lone wolf” Christianity, or a spirit of removal from the family of God.

What I am advocating is acknowledging responsibility for one’s belief, and therefore your action’s before God.

(Hopefully we will address this issue in a later post!)

A long time ago, Moses wrote concerning prophets and their authority over His people.

Deuteronomy 13

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Here we have Moses advocating a discerning spirit that stands up to “prophets” within the church, prophets with supernatural powers that seem to have authority in their “ministry”.

Did Moses advocate obeying these prophets?

Verse 5 seems to say they should “kill em”.

These prophets were in a position of seeming authority with all this wonder-working power. But the message these prophets were preaching was one of drawing the people away from God. The people of God needed to love God enough to reject these evil, self promoting men.

Teach me, persuade me of the scriptures. Human authority is only human authority.

Story time.

A long time ago (not as long as Moses story!), I was a newly married fella, with a job delivering papers. (over 400 each night!) I would usually start around 2 in the morning and be finished around 6.
One beautiful morning, around 5, I was delivering to Georges home. Now George is a fine christian man, one that I respected and listened to. He was awake and he invited me in for a wee drink. I asked him a Bible question and he took me to the scriptures, explaining where I was lacking in my understanding. This fella had a degree in Bible something, but he never referred to his ability to understand the Word, or his awesome knowledge base that I should respect. He showed me the Scriptures. And usually I was persuaded.
Thanks George.

We will address “RULE” in the next post. Please return to “Considering the Bible” with me.
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Christian Accountability – Introduction

2020-01-06
The Christian life is a life of submission and obedience to the Lord Jesus. It was a while back, when my wife and I were in a Bible study, discussing various topics, when the subject of accountability came up. Now, as a Christian, I have always been taught that the Christian life is a life of submission and obedience to the Lord Jesus, and by association, one of submission to authority found in church officials/employees/ministers. Many passages speak of mutual submission (Eph. 5:21 comes to mind) and of obedience to men placed into church offices.

The last few years have given me pause in the last statement I just made. No, not the last statement, – just the last phrase of that statement.

You see, I have been pondering a question!

Is a Christian Accountable to Church Leadership?

Some Ground Rules for Discussing “Christian Accountability”

If some of these questions seem to have answers that are inanely obvious, consider answering them with passages from the Bible.

Please do not post an answer that sounds like…

We have always done it that way.
- It may be right, but previous practice does not justify itself! Prove your point from the Word of God.
That question is ridiculous.
- Send me a ridiculously easy passage that refutes my erroneous thinking.
That question makes me so mad…..
- Emotions are not the issue, truth is the issue.
Your thinking is not logical.
- Someone once said “Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence”
I will overwhelm you with proof texts.
- Quantity does not equal quality! Please try to focus on the specific topic being addressed.
Posting an answer that includes a short, well prepared question, has tremendous power. Many times the Lord Himself answered His antagonist with a specific, pointed question. Your mission, (should you decide to accept it), is to sharpen a question (if applicable) and/or supply a correcting Biblical teaching.

Some issues that are important in addressing the question above, and which may become topics on their own will be…
- Does the Bible demand accountability to anyone?
- Does the Bible define two classes of Christian – That is, clergy and layman?
- Does the Bible defend the practice of salaried clergy?
- Does the Bible describe the church as a business? (If not, golly, what could it be?)
- Does the Bible delineate structure within the Body of Christ?
I anticipate this particular topic to have multiple posts, and I am looking for a “vibrant” discussion, so lets go!

Hebrew 13

When this question arises, ie. “Is a Christian accountable to Church Leaders?” invariably the passage in Hebrews 13 is referred to.

Therefore, as a starting point, lets consider the passage.

Hebrews 13:7-17

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I have emboldened the verse under consideration. The following posts will address Hebrews 13:17, and a considered review of critical words the apostle uses in exhorting the believers he is writing to.

Following is a matrix of words that need to be considered in understanding the teaching of Hebrews 13, especially verse 17. (See end of each study for Strong’s full definitions.)

We will address each of these words in the following posts. Please return to “Considering the Bible” with me.
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Purpose of Prophecy – Mark 15:43-46

2020-01-03
Biblical prophecy has a purpose. Am I sure I get it?

A few days back I was listening to Mark 15 and a few verses grabbed my attention.

Mar 15:43-46

Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate was surprised to hear that he should have already died. And summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead. And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the corpse to Joseph. And Joseph bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud and laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock. And he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.

In that passage, Joseph of Arimathea took the body of Jesus, wrapped it in fine linen and placed it in a tomb.

OK – so did he perform this action out of obedience to the Word?

Did he see an Old Testament passage and decide to take action to fulfill the prophecy? The text says that Joseph “took courage”, but does not define the motivation of the action. Was it simply to bring some honor to his Rabbi, or was it due to his seeking to obey Isaiah 53:9.

Isaiah 53:9

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

In this instance, the text seems to teach that the fulfillment of the prophecy was not Joseph’s objective.

If so, this particular prophecy in Isaiah was not given to inform prior to its fulfillment, but after its fulfillment.

Well – if that is generally true of prophecy, do we in the modern church look at Biblical prophecy correctly?

Do we try to find out the future for our own purposes? Granted, some information – the Olivet discourse comes to mind – was given to the apostles prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, that they might escape the judgement of God through the Roman armies on the nation of Israel.

Even considering the Olivet discourse though, might the higher purpose of that prophecy be somewhat different from merely saving the disciples lives? After all, most of the apostles were going to be martyred, and persecution was going to fall on the church shortly after the fall of Jerusalem.

I suppose the general thought of trying to figger out the future is very popular among western Christians of a certain stripe. I admit I used to delve heavily into future forecasting, but am now considering the wisdom of that attitude.

A year or so back, a particular passage in John got me thinking. Actually, when I read it carefully, it created more questions than answers! Jesus is talking to His disciples, telling them of a particular future event and actually lets them know WHY He tells them.

John 13:19

I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.

Did you catch it? “…that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”

The purpose was to direct the disciples faith to the person of Christ after the fulfillment of the prediction, not to instruct them on how to save their own bacon. Not for some temporal reason, but to direct the attention to the Messiah.

Could this be the highest purpose of prophecy?

Should we consider this to be the primary focus of prophetic interpretation?

When we come to a particular prophecy in the Word, would this concept help us to know the heart of God better?

Would it help us to rest in Him instead of hurrying about protecting ourselves from what we think may happen?

Lets consider Biblical prophecy to be a gift, not to primarily inform us of future events, but direct our attention to the One who is faithful!
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Nation or Church – Jeremiah 31:35-37

2020-01-01
Why are you such a heretic?

A brother recently asked me what I thought of Jeremiah 31:35-37. You see, I am considered somewhat of a heretic among my fellow believers.

Well, lets consider the passage below.

I have included the full paragraph in order to follow Jeremiahs train of thought. (choo chooooo)

Jer 31:31 – 37

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):

“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Thus says the Lord:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.

To give all y’all some background on this, I am presently attending a great Sunday School Class where the majority of attendees subscribe to a dispensational framework of understanding future events. I have let all know that I have left that teaching, and they have been gracious to allow me to remain in the class.

Occasionally, a question or passage comes up that makes my thinking seem so unbiblical, and this passage definitely argues for a future existence of the physical nation of Israel!

So, how can you think so wrongly Carl, when the passage above is so clear!

NEW TESTAMENT COMMENTARY

One item of importance to note is that Hebrews 8:8-13 gives us commentary that is pertinent to the subject of Jeremiahs prophecy. I will use the ESV to show the portion in Hebrews that is being quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34

Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

I don’t know of any New Testament passage that supplies such a long quote of an Old Testament passage as in Hebrews 8. It is truly remarkable. The author of Hebrews must have some great message to tell his Hebrew Christian audience to take up so much room in his short letter.

Let’s read the next verse!

In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

WHAT? Vanish away can’t mean what I think it means!!

The Strongs concordance states “vanish away” = ἀφανισμός aphanismós, af-an-is-mos’; from G853; disappearance, i.e. (figuratively) abrogation:—vanish away.

I do admit that the verse speaks of the covenant vanishing away, and not the nation per se, but on what was the nation of Israel established upon but the old covenant? If the old covenant has vanished away (and it has), upon what is any future nation based upon?

SUN AND MOON CEASING

Lets get back to the original set of verses in Jeremiah. Jeremiah said the physical nation of Israel would continue until the sun and moon ceased to exist. If the author of Hebrews is correct, what is going on?

The prophet was careful in his word choice. Lets consider Jeremiah 31:36 one more time.

“If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the Lord, then the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever.”

We have a problem here if “the seed of Israel” is synonymous for the physical lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which became the nation of Israel. The ordinances (sun and moon) are still sticking around and the nation of Israel ceased to exist in 70 AD. We got problems!

Lets consider another passage that may shed light on this issue. In John 8, Jesus tried to correct a misunderstanding in His day when he spoke of Abraham’s seed.

John 8:37-42

“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

Jesus was trying to correct a misunderstanding about the true lineage of faith, and that it does NOT depend on physical seed, but on spiritual seed. (Abraham’s children do the works of Abraham.)

As a matter of fact, a little later in the New Testament, Paul labors to show us that the true seed of Abraham is Christ in Galations 3:16

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

So when Jeremiah brings up “the seed of Israel” we do not have the freedom to assume he is referring to a physical lineage. The “seed of Israel” has not ceased to exist as a nation, since true Israelite’s, such as Peter, John, Paul (and thousands more) trusted in the promised seed, the Savior.

The physical nation ceased to exist in AD 70, but I think it was on old wine sack that just couldn’t carry new wine – It just refused to accept the new wine.

But God did not let the nation cease to exist. The physical nation of Israel “vanished away”, but God’s promise did not cease to be fulfilled. Peter uses an Old Testament passage (Exodus 19:5-6) describing the newly born nation of Israel and applies it to the church.

Exodus 19:5-6

Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

So in answer to my brother, I believe Jeremiahs prophecy is holding true, and that the seed of Israel has not ceased to exist as a nation. The true nation of Israel, in God’s eyes, consists of faithful believers before and after the cross, trusting in His promises.

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Peewee and the Believer

2019-12-30
My wife has a dog. It is a snaggle toothed dog, with wiry hair, bad breath and a bit of a belly.
Peewee is a rescue dog. She was my wife’s second choice when we went to the pound to get a pup. (Her first choice had been spoken for prior to her seeing it.) Peewee was a timid pup, hiding in the back of the cage, a bit fearful and very quiet, but she caught my wife’s eye, and we brought her home. That was about three years ago.
Fast forward to today. I was taking care of some work in the master bathroom when I saw Peewee coming into the bedroom. Our dogs (we have three) are not allowed to be upstairs.
“What in tarnation are you doing upstairs, Peewee?”
A few seconds later, Paula entered the room and I understood. You see, my wife has a shadow, and that shadow is called Peewee.
Peewee is so bound up with my wife, so connected with her, so attached to her, that I can tell where Paula is by where Peewee is. Where Paula is, Peewee is sure to be near.
When Paula is in the house, Peewee is nearby. When Paula is outside, Peewee is outside.
If my wife is at work, Peewee is waiting on the back of the couch until she comes home. Peewee waits all day until Paula enters the house. I have been at home while Paula is at work, and watched Peewee patiently wait for Paula to return.
It seems the pup has no problem with the length of time Paula takes to return home. When she traveled recently, Peewee waited. Patiently. When she returned after a week of travelling, Peewee was happy to see her. When she left to go get some milk and bread recently, and returned within the hour, Peewee was happy to see her.
The length of time Paula is gone doesn’t seem to effect Peewee’s attachment to Paula. Peewee is simply happy to see her.
Early in Peewee’s time with us, Paula doted on that pup. The connection was initiated by Paula, and is strengthened every time Paula comes in that front door.
This is similar of the Father and the Son and the Spirit. They initiated the relationship with us. With me. They are constantly reaching out to us and encouraging us.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 15:9-10
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love
2 Timothy 1:7
For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.
When Paula comes in that door, Peewee sees an opportunity to be beside Paula, with Paula, next to Paula and near Paula until she leaves again. Peewee uses every minute to connect and be with Paula.
May I suggest – spend time with Him. Turn the TV off, the internet off, the radio off, the stereo off, all the distractions. Break open a Bible and spend some time with the One who is.
Psalm 46:10
“Be still, and know that I am God.
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth!”
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Popular Prophecy

2019-12-27
Biblical prophecy sure is popular!
A few days back I was browsing the internet, that great stealer of time and thought, and came across a list of known “End of the World” prophecies that have hounded the church since the very earliest days of the church.
I will attach the list below only after I bring to your attention that the end of the world for both you and me is definitely within our lifetime! I can absolutely guarantee that once you lifetime is complete, the effect of the end of the world will be accomplished. This is what we need get ready for.
Prepare to meet your God!
The end of the world may be centuries away. I can guaran-dog-tee you are gonna meet God in the next few decades (or less!) Don’t let the sensational fear mongers grab your attention. Daily be in touch with Jesus, seek to obey His will, walk humbly with Him and grow in the knowledge of His ways. Note that if you are not growing in the knowledge of His ways, you can be certain you are regressing and falling away.
According to the list below, we have missed many of the the “ends of the world” it is embarrassing!!
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Local Church Membership – Research Response

2019-12-23
Recently in Sunday School, I had the opportunity to chat with a fellow believer regarding his research on “Local Church Membership” I think he was seeking some degree from a Bible School, and he was kind enough to let me ask him some difficult questions.

Eventually, in an effort to allow others to participate in the class, I suggested he send me his research to read. He emailed it to me the next day and I took a few minutes to review it and make some comments. I didn’t spend much time on the portion of church tradition’s as justification for church membership, since I was curious about the Biblical defence he used to justify this teaching.

What follows below are snippets of his research (in red) with my comments following.

Referring to Matthew 16:19, 18:17-18, he states

“Keys are a symbol of authority over who enters and who is excluded. Given the context of Peter’s confession of Christ in the former passage, binding and loosing here likely relates to deciding who by their confession is regenerate and therefore to be received into church membership.”

This conclusion is not required from the text. I fear the “membership test” of determining who is regenerate and who is not, is placing a heavy responsibility on both the church leaders and the subject.

As you well know, confession is not a reliable indicator of true faith, unless by confession, you mean obedience to the faith and not just verbal assent to some teaching. If this conclusion is warranted (that is, if a person is regenerate, he may be received into church membership), nothing in this passage describes a “local” church, and its membership.

Would the apostles have imagined a local group of believers to be required to test newcomers, instead of simply loving them and allowing them to join thier gatherings?

Would the apostles have required a believer to enter a membership agreement (other than commitment to the Lord Jesus?)

Does not the New Testament teach that to be regenerate IS to be in the Church, the Body of Christ?

Similarly given the context of the latter passage relating to church discipline (that is Mathew 18), the church is to decide who by their impenitence is unregenerate and therefore to be excluded from church membership.

Again, this is a difficult call to decide who is unregenerate. Deciding the status of a person’s relationship with the God of Heaven is difficult to say the least. Much time and experiences will supply some insight in the person’s status. When I think of Peter’s 3 years of being with Jesus, I would have given him my full confidence right up to the denial. And then I would have rejected him. But then, I would have accepted him. And then in Galatia, when he ate with the Jews only, I would have rejected him. But then, sometime after that, I probablywould have accepted him. What a rollercoaster!!!

Exclusion of membership is only effective when it relates directly to relationships within the church, not a letter or form from church officials. Many times, I have heard of those excluded from a church via a letter or form, and yet the excluded member maintains relationships within their sphere of “friends”, and simply moves on to another church, sometimes attaining the coveted membership again. Something doesn’t seem to be working with this system, if the non-repentant can continue to be accepted in other bodies.

Just as the exchange of wedding rings symbolizes entry into the marriage covenant by the bride and groom, so baptism symbolizes entry into a new covenant by a believer with God through faith in Christ.

Are you suggesting baptism is equal to local church membership in God’s eyes? That is, local church membership is one of the new covenant’s ordinances?

The church has a responsibility to discern the regenerate status of a candidate before administering baptism and likewise to restrict participation in the Lord’s Supper to those who are regenerate.

When the Ethiopian asked to get baptized, Phillip baptized him. The church (Philip, in this case) simply baptized the Ethiopian. I don’t know of anywhere in the NT where a period of discernment is described or prescribed for the administration of baptism for a confessing believer.

³⁵Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.

³⁶And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”

³⁸And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Regarding the Lord’s Supper, please direct me to where the New Testament gives the church (leaders?) the right to restrict participation in the Lord’s supper. I have heard of this teaching before, but never been given a passage to consider it’s veracity.

One passage does describe the believer’s responsibility of judging whether he/she should eat the Lord’s Supper

²⁷Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.

²⁸Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

²⁹For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

We are told to not give up meeting together (Heb 10:25) and to use our spiritual gifts for the common good (1 Cor 12:7).

Regarding meeting together, would you restrict someone from meeting together with you and your members if he, for conscience sake, did not submit to adding his name to a roster? As an aside , I once asked a pastor if he would rather have a faithful and active believer in his church (although not a member), or a pew sitting member in his church. He did not respond.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 12:7, spiritual gifts for the common good need not be restricted to a membership of Christians but should be for the common good of ALL (Christian and non-Christian).

I cannot imagine how local church membership adds any value to a spiritual gift. (Other than being allowed to use it in a restricted membership environment – But if the restriction was lifted, would more blessing be available to others?)

All these (that is meeting together and spiritual gifts) imply that we can identify who are our fellow members in the body.

Christians should be able to identify their brothers and sisters by the fellowship of the Spirit and love to the Lord. You know as well as I brother, that membership is not infallible, and that some fakers make it to a membership status.

The church publicly declares someone to be a member when it baptizes that person, and periodically reaffirms who is in its covenant membership through invitation to participate in the Lord’s Supper.

I assume you are referring to becoming a member of the local church. Is this implying that when a believer moves to a new geographical location, he has an obligation to be baptized again, in order to declare that person publicly?

….the relation of church leader and church member must be clear for elders to be able to exercise oversight (1 Pet 5:1-5)

5 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:

²shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;

³not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

⁴And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

⁵Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

I suppose you equate submission to an elder to be within the local church I am a member of. If so, could I submit to an elder of another local church? Is there a restriction to my submitting to other believers (outside of my local church) who care for my soul, who may understand my circumstance better, who may have experienced like things in my life and been taught by the Word?

This passage does speak of submission to elders (but it seems to be in relation to age and not church office, since Peter directs the “younger” to be subject to the elder) Believers are rightfully to have an attitude of submission to all. (Remember that verse about “Submit to one another”?).

I do not see how this passage in 1 Peter defines local church membership for the believer, especially since the book was written for the diaspora, the dispersed believers, and not to a specific local body of Christians.

Referring to 1 Corinthians 12

The church as the body of Christ underscores the necessity of church membership (because members of the body cannot survive apart from the body)

Are you implying that Paul meant “members of a local church” when he said members?

If so, why was he not specific, and state that the members are to create a covenantal agreement to sign on to, in order to obey, and remove their immaturity and division.

I did a quick search of 1 Corinthians and did not find the term “membership” within the passage, although I found the term “members” often. As a family man, I often think of my children as members of my family, and yet it would be an huge insult to them to ask them to formally join the family through a membership.

When believers are brought into the fold, they should clearly affirm the terms of the membership covenant they are entering, just as bride and groom must understand the terms of their marriage covenant.

The covenant a believer enters into is called the “New Covenant”, where the law is written on our heart – o heck let the apostle describe it for us

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.

11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

And like a marriage, the church covenant requires its participants to continually work at abiding by it, taking advantage of every opportunity to reaffirm their vows.

The church covenant you desire to justify seems to be amongst brothers and sisters, not husbands and wives. I suppose you are likening covenants and not the parties to it, but it seems unnecessary, and clouds the issue for me

I would suggest that the insertion of a church covenant into a group of believers creates a distraction from the New Covenant, that Jesus shed His blood to ratify for our benefit.

Consider
- If the church covenant adds responsibilities to believers beyond the new covenant, be careful.
- If it states the same responsibilities as the New Covenant, why introduce it?
We need to be members of His body primarily, and as we travel through this life down here, we may have the priviledge to be a part of a group of loving believers. If signing a membership role removes restrictions to a loving group of believers, may God bless you as you journey with them.

If you read something in this discussion that concerns you, please take the time to send me your comments or reply within the post. I look forward to hearing from you.
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Conditional Security – Colossians 1:21-23

2019-12-21
Years ago, when I was merely beginning to consider verses that may hint at the possibility of a chance that conditional security could have a tiny opportunity of gaining credibility in my understanding, this particular verse may have been the culprit that started my “descent into heresy”.

The circumstances, combined with my studying this verse in Colossians, seemed to be completely unrelated. It came about because I was meeting with a bunch of word of faith “believers”. I had been visiting with them, trying to understand their thinking, (instead of just taking someones word on their thinking.)

Anyhow, they were looking at the temptation of the Lord, and specifically the “if” statements the devil was throwing out at Him. I can’t recall the specific clause they landed on, but their conclusion followed the Arian heresy*. Two minutes after I asked some pertinent questions, and understood their settled stand on this matter, I spoke of my conviction, thanked them for their hospitality and quietly excused myself from thier home.

But the talk haunted me and set me on a bit of a study on the word “IF”. (Carl – you need to git a life!)

Anyway, I found a table (see end of post) that seemed helpful in explaining the different conditions in the Greek manuscripts that the English word “IF” was trying to communicate to us.

Colossians 1:23 uses the first class condition. But I am getting way ahead of myself.

Lets consider the passage first.

Colossians 1:21-23

And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Like I said, Colossians 1:23 uses a first class conditional “IF”, and some teachers state that this term can be translated as “since”. This would definitely take any “conditionality” out of this passage, since Paul would be stating a settled fact, as in …. Since you will continue in the faith….

Boy, that would be devastating for the conditional position.

But wait! Lets try that same translation for other instances where the first class conditional “IF” is used in the New Testament.

How bout this one.

Matthew 5:29

Since your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell

This verse actually instructs believers to pluck their eye out, since their eye offends them!

OK – Lets try this verse

Ephesians 4:21

assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,

Ephesians 4:21 seems to allow using “assuming” instead of “if”, but this seeming exception should not make the rule. Paul may be questioning these believers if they really heard “Him” to make a point.

OK Carl, how can you say it is the exception to the rule. Check out these verses to consider if translating this word as “since” makes sense.

Matthew 12:27

Since I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

Matthew 17:4

And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. Since you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

Luke 11:18

SINCE Satan is also divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand?

Luke 22:42

Father, SINCE you are willing, remove this cup from me . . .

John 10:37

SINCE I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me . . .

Acts 25:11

Now SINCE I am wrong and have committed a deed worthy of death, I am not refusing to die . . .

Romans 4:2

For SINCE Abraham was justified by works, he has a basis for boasting . . .

Romans 4:14

For SINCE those who follow the law are heirs, faith is canceled out and the promise is voided

1 Corinthians 7:9

But SINCE they are not exercising self-control, they should get married.

1 Corinthians 8:13

SINCE food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat . . .

1 Corinthians 9:17

For SINCE I do this willingly, I have a reward; but since I do it unwillingly, I have been entrusted with a stewardship

1 Corinthians 11:6

For SINCE a woman will not veil herself, she should cut off her hair . . .

1 Corinthians 15:13

Now SINCE there is no resurrection from the dead, neither has Christ been raised

1 Corinthians 15:19

SINCE in this life we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most miserable

1 Corinthians 15:32

SINCE the dead are not raised, “let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.”

Galations 2:21

For SINCE justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

Galations 3:18

For SINCE the inheritance is from the law, it is no longer from the promise.

Galations 5:11

Now brothers, SINCE I am still preaching circumcision, why am still being persecuted?

Hebrews 9:13

For SINCE the blood of goats and bulls . . . sanctifies those who have been defiled

Hebrews 12:8

SINCE you are without the discipline which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not sons

James 2:11

Now SINCE you do not commit adultery, but SINCE you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

OK – I think I made my point. A simple reading of the passage communicates the conditionality intended by the author. So it seems Paul is informing the Colossians of their conditional status before their Master.

Story Time

As an aside, a few months after my study on this passage was complete, I was attending a newly formed Bible study and coincidentally looking at the first chapter of Colossians. The spirit of the meeting was very cordial and I sensed an openness to ask questions. Since I had just learned of this passage, I thought I would bring it up.

NO DISCUSSION ALLOWED.

The leader actually stood up from his chair, and approached me in front of the rest of the group. “The preacher said those verses should be read differently.” Therefore that was all the discussion that was needed. I am sure he was seeking to maintain the purity of the faith, protect the weak, or enforce his leadership, but that night sticks with me.

A couple of practical applications come to my mind from this experience

If I feel threatened by a believer’s differing views, ask yourself…
- Are you depending/trusting in a man’s interpretation of a verse, passage or theology? Professional Christians may have oodles of learning, but NOTHING replaces self study and prayer in seeking to understand the Word.
- Have I “finished” searching out the Scriptures? They – the Scriptures – tend to speak of Him, and with that hope, the Word is worthy of trying to understand.
- Do I discuss opposing views with respect and an honest effort to understand the position? The Word of Faith folks, in my opinion, were wringing the Scriptures of truth, but any mockery, dismissal, anger or intimidation would accomplish absolutely nothing positive. Trust me – I have personal experience of this!
Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
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- According to Wikipeadia – The Arian controversy was a series of Christian theological disputes that arose between Arius and Athanasius of Alexandria, two Christian theologians from Alexandria, Egypt. The most important of these controversies concerned the substantial relationship between God the Father and God the Son.
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Conditional Security – Passage List

2019-12-20
Let me supply a listing of conditional security passages I am attempting to study as I blog. Note that this post is simply a list of Bible passages teaching of the conditional security of the believer (I think).

When I first considered all the potential verses (potential, since I haven’t come to any settled conclusions on many of them!), I was a bit dumbfounded. I thought a couple passages in Hebrews would be the extent of my study.

Of course, as you review and consider some of these passages, you may want to add, or question one of the passages. Let me know via the contact form at the bottom.

Now, without further ado, I present to you a working list of New Testament conditional security passages. As I study each passage I will link the post to the verse references below.

Hopefully I can keep it updated!

Topical
- Sealed – Old Testament Basis
- Sealed – New Testament Teaching
Old Testament
- Exodus 23:20-22
- Exodus 32:31-33
- Leviticus 26:14-45
- Joshua 1:9
- 1 Kings 15:5
- 2 Chronicles 15:1-2
- Psalm 26:9-12
- Psalm 51:11
- Psalm 69:17-28
- Proverbs 21:16
- Isaiah 1:18-28
- Ezekiel 18:24
- Ezekiel 33:12-15
Gospel of Matthew
- Matthew 3:8-10
- Matthew 5:13
- Matthew 5:22
- Matthew 5:29-30
- Matthew 6:23
- Matthew 7:13-23
- Matthew 7:16-19
- Matthew 10:21-22
- Matthew 10:24-28
- Matthew 10:32-33
- Matthew 10:42
- Matthew 12:31-37
- Matthew 13:20-21
- Matthew 13:24-30
- Matthew 13:38-43
- Matthew 18:21-35
- Matthew 22:1-14
- Matthew 24:9-10
- Matthew 24:11-13
- Matthew 24:23-26
- Matthew 24:44-51
- Matthew 25:1-30
- Matthew 25:41-46
Gospel of Mark
- Mark 4:3-19
- Mark 13:13
- Mark 13:35-37
Gospel of Luke
- Luke 3:8-9
- Luke 8:4-15
- Luke 8:11-15
- Luke 9:57-62
- Luke 11:24-26
- Luke 12:8-12
- Luke 12:35-46
- Luke 12:41-48
- Luke 13:1-9
- Luke 14:25-35
- Luke 15:24
Gospel of John
- John 3:16
- John 5:28-29
- John 6:66-71
- John 8:31,32, 51
- John 10:28-29
- John 13:8-11
- John 15:1-6 – A
- John 15:1-6 – B
- John 15:11-17
Acts of the Apostles
- Acts 5:32
- Acts 8:9-24
- Acts 11:23
- Acts 13:43
- Acts 14:21-23
Romans
- Romans 2:1-11
- Romans 2:7
- Romans 6:15-16
- Romans 6:11-23
- Romans 8:1-17
- Romans 8:12-14
- Romans 8:17
- Romans 11:17-24
- Romans 11:20-22
- Romans 11:29
- Romans 14:15-23
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
- 2 Corinthians 1:24
- 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
- 2 Corinthians 11:2-4
- 2 Corinthians 12:21 – 13:5
- 2 Corinthians 13:5-9
Galations
- Galatians 1:6-10
- Galatians 1:6-7
- Galatians 4:1-11
- Galatians 5:1-4
- Galatians 6:7-9
Ephesians
- Ephesians 3:17
- Ephesians 5:3-6
Philippians
- Philippians 1:3-11
- Philippians 2:12-16
- Philippians 3:7-20 – A
- Philippians 3:7-20 – B
- Philippians 3:7-20 – C
Colossians
- Colossians 1:21-23
- Colossians 2:4-8
- Colossians 2:18-19
- Colossians 3:4-10
1 Thessalonians
- 1 Thessalonians 3:1-8
1 Timothy
- 1 Timothy 1:3-7
- 1 Timothy 1:5-11
- 1 Timothy 1:18-20
- 1 Timothy 2:11-15 – A
- 1 Timothy 2:11-15 – B
- 1 Timothy 4:1-3 – A
- 1 Timothy 4:1-3 – B
- 1 Timothy 4:16
- 1 Timothy 5:5-8
- 1 Timothy 5:11-15 – A
- 1 Timothy 5:11-15 – B
- 1 Timothy 6:3-8
- 1 Timothy 6:9-11
- 1 Timothy 6:12
- 1 Timothy 6:17-19
2 Timothy
Titus
- Titus 1:15-16
Hebrews
- Hebrews 2:1-3
- Hebrews 3:6-19
- Hebrews 4:1-11
- Hebrews 4:11
- Hebrews 4:13
- Hebrews 4:14
- Hebrews 5:8-9
- Hebrews 6:1-12
- Hebrews 6:4-20
- Hebrews 7:25
- Hebrews 10:19-25
- Hebrews 10:26-31
- Hebrews 10:35-39
- Hebrews 11:13-16
- Hebrews 12:6-9
- Hebrews 12:10-13
- Hebrews 12:14-17
- Hebrews 12:18-25
- Hebrews 13:7
- Hebrews 13:9-14
James
- James 1:12
- James 1:13-16
- James 1:21-22
- James 2:14-26
- James 4:4-10
- James 5:7-9
- James 5:19-20
1 Peter
- 1 Peter 1:5-11
- 1 Peter 1:13
- 1 Peter 4:17-18
2 Peter
- 2 Peter 1:5-11
- 2 Peter 2:4-22
- 2 Peter 3:11-15
- 2 Peter 3:16-17
1 John
- 1 John 1:5-10
- 1 John 2:1-11
- 1 John 2:19
- 1 John 2:23-29
- 1 John 3:1-10
- 1 John 3:15
- 1 John 5:4-5
- 1 John 5:16-17 – A
- 1 John 5:16-17 – B
2 John
- 2 John 1:6-9
- 2 John 1:9
3 John

Jude
- Jude 1:5
- Jude 1:6-7
- Jude 1:4-12 – A
- Jude 1:4-12 – B
- Jude 1:4-12 – C
- Jude 1:4-12 – D
Revelation
- Revelation 2:4-5
- Revelation 2:7
- Revelation 2:10-11
- Revelation 2:12-17
- Revelation 2:18-26
- Revelation 3:4-5
- Revelation 3:8-12
- Revelation 3:14-22
- Revelation 12:11
- Revelation 14:9-13
- Revelation 17:14
- Revelation 21:7-8
- Revelation 21:27
- Revelation 22:14-15
- Revelation 22:18-19
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Conditional Security – Introduction

2019-12-18
Conditional Security of Christian Believers

SECURITY: the quality or state of being secure: freedom from danger, fear or anxiety

I have been a believer for over 35 years, having been saved at the ripe ol’ age of 21. One of the first teachings I received was the eternal security, “once saved always saved” (OSAS) doctrine. This doctrine teaches that once a person has placed faith in Christ (asked Jesus into his/her heart?), that person is eternally and irrevocably destined to heaven. It was, in my thinking, a contract I signed with God, a business transaction. Please understand, I am in no way reducing the covenantal promise He has provided to all who will trust in Him, but I suppose I question the duration of trust required.

Although I was never explicitly taught that sin could not break the contract I “signed” with God through faith, there was no fear to indulge in some peripheral sin. I was secure – I was going to be just fine! For close to 25 years I belonged to an eternal security denomination. I would only read eternal security books, eternal security pamphlets, and listen to teachers who taught eternal security. Every few sermons seemed to emphasize the eternal security of the believer, sometimes even using certain Scriptures to support the teaching. I vowed to never entertain that heresy of the “dark side”.

I just couldn’t risk the conflict in my mind.

I thought the OSAS logic was air tight. Certain Scriptures seemed to only teach the eternal security position. I would simply avoid the odd “bothersome” passages, (which began to pile up after a while), or find some way to explain the passage away.

It was a very comfortable place to be.

A Loss of Security

Then the church I was (heavily) involved in found sin in us and told us to leave. We were shocked and disoriented.

Just a few days previously, I had lost my job. We were living in a small Texas town with no possibility for work.

The security we found in our local church and our cushy job fell down around us.

I eventually found a position approx. 3 hours away. During my 3 hour commutes Monday morning and Friday afternoon, I began to listen to a Bible teacher who held different views than I. Initially I was drawn to this teacher’s eschatology, since my faith in dispensational teachings was slipping. He is a methodical and thorough Bible teacher who is not afraid to consider alternate viable interpretations of the Scriptural text.

I found him to be very challenging. Only one weakness – he had a “dark” side – he didn’t teach OSAS!

Another Security

As I listened to his teaching on Israel, the church and the end times, I would occasionally catch a reference to his “dark” side teaching and at first easily rebuffed his argument in my mind. That is until the passages became too numerous. It seemed that all I was doing was excusing, avoiding or rearranging Bible passages.

I started to study the passages and other authors from the dark side, until I found a book by Robert Shank, called “Life in the Son”. If you desire to continue in the OSAS camp, do not read this book. The exposition of numerous passages became too much for me.

So what is true security?

So far, I think true security is found in a consistent, direct relationship with the Savior. A desire to please Him and to do as He directs.

Although I have learned much since I began to consider conditional security, two thoughts come to mind.
- The new covenant is an agreement between two parties.
  - He is faithful in all His activities and promises.
  - I am asking for help to become like Him.
- If the nation of Israel, God’s covenant nation, was cut off and destroyed, how could I be so proud to think my relationship with the Living God could be ignored and not suffer?
No matter which camp you may fall into, we need to be motivated to please Him in all our ways.

As I publish on this blog, I will occasionally write on this topic, based on a Bible passage or topic. I look forward to all comments and remarks.

I hope you will join me in “Considering the Bible”

2 Timothy 2:19

But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion. If you know someone this blog may bless (or challenge), send them a link, so they may join us in our discussion

Come join us at Considering the Bible
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Inherit the Kingdom? Who knew? – Part 2

2019-12-17

Inheriting the Kingdom

Recently (yesterday!) I blogged on Paul’s passage in Ephesian 5:5 about inheriting the kingdom, and it got me thinking about the other two passages in the New Testament that line out lifestyles that are restrictive to inheriting the Kingdom.

The three passages are as follows

Ephesians 5:5

For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

1Corinthians 6:9 – 10

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galations 5:19 – 21

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I have this weakness, you see, of taking data and compiling it to compare information. This is my intent with this post. I simply offer a table showing the characteristics of those who will not inherit the kingdom.

A bit surprising, being in the religious culture of the American life!

Gk Strongs #	Greek Transliteration	KJV Translation	1 Cor 6:9-10	Gal 5:19-22	Eph 5:5
94	adikos	unrighteous	x
139	hairesis	heresies		x
167	akatharsia	uncleanness		x
169	akathartos	unclean person			x
727	harpax	extortioners	x
733	arsenokoitēs	abusers of themselves with mankind	x
766	aselgeia	lasciviousness		x
1370	dichostasia	seditions		x
1495	eidōlolatria	idolatry		x
1496	eidōlolatrēs	idolaters	x
1496	eidōlolatrēs	idolator			x
2052	eritheia	strife		x
2054	eris	variance		x
2189	echthra	hatred		x
2205	zēlos	emulations		x
2372	thymos	wrath		x
2812	kleptēs	theives	x
2970	kōmos	revellings		x
3060	loidoros	revilers	x
3120	malakos	effeminate	x
3178	methē	drunkeness		x
3183	methysos	drunkards	x
3430	moicheia	adultery		x
3432	moichos	adulterers	x
4123	pleonektēs	covetous	x
4123	pleonektēs	covetous man			x
4202	porneia	fornication		x
4205	pornos	fornicators	x
4205	pornos	whoremonger			x
5331	pharmakeia	witchcraft		x
5355	phthonos	envyings		x
5408	phonos	murders		x
		and such like		x

CSLewis (1)

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Inherit the Kingdom? Who knew?

2019-12-16
The New Testament uses two words for “know”, ya know?

When I see a two Greek words translated as one English word, my spider senses start tingling. It interests me. One instance where two Greek words are used, (translated as one English word), is found in 1 John 2:29

1John 2:29

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

John uses two Greek words, defining which translates to our word “knowledge “.
- The first Greek verb referring to “knowledge” is εἴδω, eídō. (Strongs #1492) See Thayers definition below.
- The second Greek word to show up in this verse referring to “knowledge” is γινώσκω, ginṓskō. (Strongs #1097), See Thayers definition below.
Story time that helps me remember the difference in these two Greek words.

When I was younger my brother and I were playing softball with an older teenager (Scott and I were 8 and 12 at the time.) The batter was a 19 yr old fella that stayed with us. Lets call him Hank.

Scott bugged me to let him pitch, and I was stuck out in the outfield chasing balls. Everything was going along just fine (for Scott) until Hank connected on one of Scott’s pitches, and drove a line drive ball right into Scott’s face.

I know about this incident. Scott knows about this incident

Do you think there is a difference between Scott’s knowledge and my knowledge? If you were to say that Scott “ginṓskō” of this incident while I “eídō” of this incident, you would be right!

So lets summarize – “ginosko” refers generally to experiential knowledge, while “eídō” generally refers to factual knowledge.

So lets get to the point of the post. I was looking at Ephesian 5:5 when I was reminded of this “knowledge” concept.

Ephesians 5:5 Wuest

for this you know absolutely and experientially, that every whoremonger or unclean person or covetous person, who is an idolator, does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God.

So What?

So whats the big deal on this verse about knowing, Carl. Consider the message in the society we live in. Three characteristics are called out of those who will not inherit the kingdom.
- The sexually immoral
The Greek word translated sexually immoral is πόρνος, pórnos. (Strongs #4205), See Thayers definition below.

The transliteration pornos gives it away. The word originally meant “to sell”, and defined specifically a male prostitute. Eventually this word came to simply mean a fornicator, whether a man or a woman.
- The impure
The Greek word translated impure is ἀκάθαρτος, akáthartos. (Strongs #169), See Thayers definition below.

This term is very broad, describing moral filth in thought, word or deed. The term leans towards sexual impurity. Check out Galatians 5:19 to see the link of impurity with sexual filth.

“The impure“ is a kind, gentle translation.
- The greedy
The Greek word translated greedy is πλεονέκτης, pleonéktēs. (Strongs #4123), See Thayers definition below – (not really necessary cause we all know what greed is!!!)

This Greek word is made up of two words – pleíon = more + écho = have. It speaks of one who is grasping for more, more than is due, and especially of those things that belong to someone else.

So lets think about this

If you are chatting with a friend and he or she speaks of pornography as a normal or common lifestyle, you can know he/she will not inherit the kingdom.

Is that what Paul is trying to get us to understand?

If they are constantly spewing filth from their mouth, or their actions imply filth, (which in this culture is becoming so widely accepted by so many!), you can know they are definitely not going to inherit the kingdom.

If they only need one more dollar, and live their lives in the grasping of the wind, you can know they will not inherit the kingdom.

Please understand me – I am not suggesting we go tell every person who is living a life of pornography, impurity and/or greed of this truth. They don’t care and they will only mock. They need to see the gospel and be open to the grace of God before they will accept any bad news.

We do though, need to know (both experientially and factually) who it is we are speaking to. As your friend or coworker exhibits these characteristics, Paul says you can (experientially and factually) know of their relation to the kingdom. They will have “no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. “

Which brings up an exception and conflict.

The Exception and Conflict

This exception occurs when he/she lives a life of pornography, impurity or greed and professes of being a believer.

I need to inform him or her that he or she is deceived.

How do I do that? A lot depends on your relationship with the person. Remember we are to be wise as serpents, knowing when and how to “strike”.

Some may respond to gently referring them to the passage we have been discussing, and some may need to be strongly rebuked. But with both efforts, the Word needs to be referenced and not simply our opinion. Asking them what they think of the passage usually is a good method to begin the discussion, or asking them what the passage means. Depending on the Spirit to guide in your discussion is critical.

Considering the moral temperature of the society we live in, and the many surveys telling us that a high percentage of Americans consider themselves believers, this exception and conflict will surely occur in our day to day lives.

As an aside, I fear the church of God is blindly accepting everyone’s profession as true, that the Christian life is not what defines a man or woman as a Christian. It seems that if you grew up in a christian home or nation, if you “asked Jesus into your heart” 44 yrs ago, made a decision for Christ (whatever that may mean) or just assume God is nice, everything will be just fine.

My friends, to know Jesus is the difference. To know him experientially on a daily basis, this is life.

Do not be lulled into a false security simply by trusting in a knowledge of Jesus, a sterile factual (εἴδω, eídō) knowledge. Many have that knowledge and are living a life that tells us they are not going to inherit the kingdom.

To “know” (γινώσκω, ginṓskō) Jesus is to be changed by Jesus, to experience His kindness and mercy, to sense His willingness to guide and correct. This is life! As you “know” (ginosko) the kindness of the Master, it will draw you into wanting to “know” (eido) more truth (found in the Word!) about Him. As you “know” (eido) more truth about Him, and obey the knowledge of Him in your life, you will “know” (ginosko) greater and greater joy and contentment, a settled peace, even in the midst of tragedy and pain.

Don’t lose out on life by being satisfied with simply a sterile, factual only, knowledge of Him.
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Thayer’s Definitions

1. eídō

to see, to perceive with the eyes, to perceive by any of the senses, to perceive, notice, discern, discover, to see i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything, to pay attention, observe, to see about something i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it, to inspect, examine, to look at, behold, to experience any state or condition, to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit, to know, to know of anything, to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive, of any fact, the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning,, to know how, to be skilled in, to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to

2. ginṓskō

to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel, to become known, to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of, to understand, to know, Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman, to become acquainted with, to know

3. pórnos

a man who prostitutes his body to another’s lust for hire, a male prostitute, a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator

4. akáthartos

not cleansed, unclean, in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from according to the levitical law, in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life

5. pleonéktēs

one eager to have more, esp. what belongs to others, greedy of gain, covetous
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Godly Intimidation

2019-12-14
How doth thee teach?

A short while ago, I attended a small Bible class, with a teacher and four students in attendance. The topic is of little consequence since the manner of discussion is the topic of this post.

Prior to the formal teaching portion, the teacher and a student were discussing racism and prejudice, and the feelings that the student was experiencing regarding personal interactions with a race not her own. The discussion elevated to the point where the teacher warned the student that if she refused to change her feelings, she would have to leave the classroom. The student (I think) simply regarded the threat as a hollow remark and mentioned the topic again, stating she feels a certain way. Again, the teacher threatened the student that she would have to leave his class.

At this point I shut down. I stayed in the class since a good friend asked me to come, and I didn’t want to create more friction, but I was dumbfounded.

And I thought of 2 Timothy 2:24.

2 Timothy 2:24

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, (KJV)

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, (ESV)

And the Lord’s slave must not engage in heated disputes but be kind toward all, an apt teacher, patient, (NET)

And I considered what was driving this teacher to feel so threatened by honest discussion. I have had a few conversations with this teacher previously and he seems sincere and desirous of pleasing the Lord. I have noticed though, that when challenged on certain teachings, he depends heavily on teaching he has heard from professional Christians over the radio or internet, or from books (other than the Bible) that he has read.

I feel this student may have been opening a door to honest discussion, and a possible venture into a specific focused consideration of what the Bible has to say about racism, judgement and forgiveness.

As the verse states, the servant of the Lord should be kind, able to teach, and patient. Alas, the class experienced anger, condemnation and impatience from the teacher.

At the end of the class, when asked if anyone had any questions, it was not surprising to hear the crickets chirping.

Not these Crickets!

Since then, as I have thought about this experience, I seem to be drawn to another passage in the New Testament that may be applicable.

Luke 9:51-56

And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

They did not receive Him.

Why did the Samaritans not receive Him? The Samaritans came about due to the splitting of the theocracy after Solomon’s time, and to keep the people of the northern tribes happy, established a temple and had their own “expectations”.

When the two messengers (the Greek word is “angelos”) went ahead into the Samaritan villages to prepare for the Messiahs arrival, the Samaritans rejected Him. Why? Because His face was set to go to Jerusalem.

But the true temple, according to the Samaritans, was at Mount Gerizim. If Jesus is going to walk through Samaria, (which He was planning on) surely He intends to validate the Samaritans beliefs. Visit the temple and congratulate the Samaritans on their achievements? Who know what the Samaritans were expecting. But they didn’t want to see the Master go to the competition temple – that is for sure.

I found a list practical applications for this concept while ruminating in an old commentary, called Barnes’ notes on the Bible.
1. That people wish all the teachers of religion to fall in with their own views.
2. That if a doctrine does not accord with their selfish desires, they are very apt to reject it.
3. That if a religious teacher or a doctrine favors a rival sect, it is commonly rejected without examination. And,
4. That people, from a regard to their own views and selfishness, often reject the true religion, as the Samaritans did the Son of God, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
All of these truths I have experienced internally for years, and still struggle with. I suppose the point I identify most with is number 3. I mentioned on the “About” page of my own struggles with considering alternative teaching. I confess that this decision brought many challenges and doubts, but also expanded my understanding of the message of the Bible!

So what did the disciples do about the Samaritans reaction to the Master? The natural, normal, easy thing to do! Lets kill em! Let’s just shower fire down on these Samaritans. That will teach them! Condemning others based on their beliefs is natural. It is the normal condition we humans find ourselves in. It is not the lowest level we dip to but the normal reaction of our heart towards others. It is easy.

Jesus rebuked them, stating that the disciples didn’t understand the spirit they were of.

The disciples thought they were engaging in religious zealotry, like the prophet Elijah. Jesus informed them they were not following after the spirit of the Master, but reflecting a spirit of destruction.

The disciples were completely confused. I suppose they hadn’t had a chance to read and understand the apostle Paul’s instructions!

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, (ESV)
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Promises to Israel – 4. A Conclusion

2019-12-11
In a previous post “Promises to Israel – Introduction” we considered a central question.

Should the nation of Israel expect realization of Old Testament promises in the future?

I suggested that God supplied three promises to the people of Israel in the Old Testament. Each of the following promises have been discussed in previous blogs.
Let’s wrap up and try to provide a conclusion.

A SIMPLE CONCLUSION

The conclusion of the matter is that each of the three central promises of God to Israel (via Father Abraham) have been fulfilled physically. The people of Israel enjoyed the status of nationhood and resided in all or part of the land for centuries. Jesus the Christ is the seed upon all the faithful flock to.

Abraham’s physical offspring received the physical promises.

Joshua 23:14

¹⁴“And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one word has failed of all the good things^[^a^] that the Lord your God promised concerning you.

All have come to pass for you; not one of them has failed.

Although Joshua was reminding the people of his day regarding the fulfillment of the promise of the land, this sentiment is also applicable for the promise to Israel of nationhood and the seed.

Abraham’s spiritual offspring (the Body of Christ) can look to the faithfulness of God to the physical offspring of Israel and learn much.

But we have so much more in the way of promises. So much more.
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Promises to Israel – 3. The Nation

2019-12-08
In a previous post “Promises to Israel – Introduction” we considered a central question.

Should the nation of Israel expect realization of Old Testament promises in the future?

I suggested that God supplied three promises to the people of Israel in the Old Testament
1. Promises to Israel – The Land
2. Promises to Israel – The Seed
3. Promises to Israel – The Nation
4. Promises to Israel – A Conclusion
This post will address the Promise of the Nation. So, “let’s get at ‘er”

THE NATION PROMISE

The promise of a nation, I feel is an extension of the land promise in some regards. (“Promises to Israel – The Land“) First off, the Lord stated that He would make Abraham a Father of many nations. We sometimes forget that, and the promise completely came to fruition with the many (mostly extinct) nations that grew out of Abraham’s physical seed. Consider the family tree below.

Kingdoms included the Ishmaelites, Edomites and those of Abraham’s last wife, Keturah. Dang – for a man who had all his children so late, his posterity is huge!!!

The promise of nationhood may be found in the following verses

Genesis 12:2-3

And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Genesis 17:5-6

No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.

But what does it mean to be a nation? What was the Lord implying when He promised this?

One distinguishing feature of a nation is a governing body of authorities, a government, combined with laws and statues to frame a social order which defines the nation. A nation has to have a territory to reside in. A nation usually possesses, to varying degrees, a unifying culture, language and religion.

Abraham’s family, in Egypt possessed a unifying culture, language and religion. But without laws, statutes, and a land to reside in, they were simply a really big family, twelve tribes from the loins of Israel.

The laws and statutes came at Sinai under Moses. The land came during Joshua’s time. So could we say that between Sinai and Canaan, the Israelite’s were a nation without land?

But let us leave that for another post – The point is that the Lord fulfilled His promise in creating a nation of the family of Abraham. His word was true and faithful. He kept His word.

Exodus 33:13

Now therefore, if I have found favor in your sight, please show me now your ways, that I may know you in order to find favor in your sight. Consider too that this nation is your people.

Deuteronomy 4:6-8

Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the LORD our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?

II Samuel 7:23

And who is like your people Israel, the one nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name and doing for them great and awesome things by driving out before your people, whom you redeemed for yourself from Egypt, a nation and its gods?
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Promises to Israel – 2. The Seed

2019-12-05
In a previous post “Promises to Israel – Introduction” we considered a central question.

Should the nation of Israel expect realization of Old Testament promises in the future?

I suggested that God supplied three promises to the people of Israel in the Old Testament
1. Promises to Israel – The Land
2. Promises to Israel – The Seed
3. Promises to Israel – The Nation
4. Promises to Israel – A Conclusion
This post will address the Promise of the Seed. So “let’s get at ‘er”

THE SEED PROMISE

Growing up with the KJV, I always read the following verses with “seed” being used instead of “offspring”. Paul makes a deal about this in Galations. I am using the ESV below (and throughout the post) for clarity sake.

This promise is murky in my mind, and I am thankful we have an Apostle defining the intent of the promise in Galations 3.

Murky, cause it seems to emphasize Abraham’s genetic offspring, that is, all of his children. This isn’t Paul’s point in the New Testament. Paul emphasizes “the seed” as referring to Christ, not “the seeds”, referring to the multitudinous children of Abraham.

The offspring in this verse are linked directly to the promise of the land. We’ve considered the land promise and if this was the only verse relating to the “seed”, we might conclude that when the land was forfeited, the offspring would be effected somehow. (After all, where would the offspring settle without the land?)

Genesis 12:7

Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built there an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Genesis 15:5 seems to be defining the promise in relation to the volume of Abraham’s offspring. Abraham’s offspring would be innumerable!

Genesis 15:5

And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Genesis 17:7 gets hairy – What is He promising? This promise relating to Abraham’s offspring has the intended result of an everlasting covenant of God being God to the offspring.

Genesis 17:7

And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

How did this work out? Before we get to Galations, lets consider the story of Elijah.

1 Kings 19:18

Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Abraham’s physical offspring resided in the nation of Israel at the time of Elijah, and yet God informed Elijah that a remnant existed within the nation. The apostate nation could not be considered to be included in the “everlasting covenant” since they were apostate. (God was not their God!)

But they were the physical offspring! This distinction is critical to note. Jesus made much of this concept in His teaching.

Matthew 3:9

“and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Matthew 8:11

“And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 19:9

And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham;

John 8:39-40

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

Notice that Jesus did not associate Abraham’s children as physically related, that is by blood, but by the actions performed in their lives.

It think my point is obvious and I don’t want to get too distracted so lets move on. (How ‘bout John the Baptist talking about repentance – No – I said I would stop!)

Galations 3:16

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

If Paul’s point is that the covenant promise was between God and His Messiah, things become somewhat clearer. The Christ is the only One who truly established an everlasting covenant for the offspring of Abraham. That is, the offspring of Abraham, those who have the faith of Abraham. Physical lineage was not crucial. Consider Ruth, Naaman, the Egyptians that joined the exodus, Rahab…. The remnant has always existed and that remnant recognized the Savior when He arrived.

OK, so we made a few minor detours going through the post. Sorry bout the remnant rant, but finding that thread of truth through the Word has helped me understand so much!

What is the conclusion of the matter? Does God have any responsibility to the people of Israel?

Oh nooo! That is another problem – Who specifically are the children of Israel today? Can a Jewish person prove his lineage back to Abraham Isaac and Jacob? I understand that it is impossible to trace lineage back to the fathers since all the records were destroyed in the temple fires during the Roman siege. But that is another rabbit trail that I may tackle at a later date.

It looks like the New Testament confirms God’s promise of the Seed to be an accomplished fact in the person of Jesus Christ.

Contact me or make comment to further our discussion in Considering the Bible. I look forward to your thoughts.

Hope to see you in the next post.
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Psalm 91 – Who’s ways?

2019-12-03
I was trying to memorize Psalm 91:11 early one morning and noticed that the psalmist referred to God keeping thee in all thy ways.

What?

Shouldn’t God be keeping “thee” in all God’s ways?  Unless “thee” is God also, in the person of the Messiah.

Have I lost you yet? I hope not.

But I never noticed this wrinkle and it set me off on a bit of discovery. I wanted to find out who was being talked to, who is talking, who are the promises meant for specifically.

And so I began to insert pronouns into the text to identify the persons speaking or being spoken to. (Being a bit slow, I find doing this sometimes clarifies the passage for me.)

Psalm 91:11

For he (God) shall give his (God’s) angels charge over thee (Messiah), to keep thee (Messiah) in all thy (Messiah’s) ways.

My memory verse opened up to me. Jesus is the subject of the Word of God and this passage became a lightning rod for me to dig a bit deeper into the text. Lets go a few more verses and see what we find.

Psalm 91:14 – 16

Because he (Messiah) hath set his love upon me (God the Father), therefore will I (God the Father) deliver him (Messiah): I will set him (Messiah) on high, because he (Messiah) hath known my name (God the Father’s)

He (Messiah) shall call upon me (God the Father), and I (God the Father) will answer him (Messiah) I (God the Father) will be with him (Messiah) in trouble; I will deliver him (Messiah) and honour him (Messiah).

With long life will I (God the Father) satisfy him (Messiah) and shew him my salvation.

Imagine the first time Jesus read this package of verses, and realized it was written specifically to Him. The entire Old Testament was a direct message to the Son and contained depths we will never understand, since the Word is a relational, personal and intimate message between the Father and Son.

This small glimpse into the meaning of this text though, is a double edged sword. The message of encouragement to the Son of God the Father’s deliverance as an ever present promise must have given much comfort as He walked among us.

And yet there came a day when all and every circumstance seemed to be screaming that the promise of deliverance was void, null, empty. No deliverance from death was to be provided prior to the cross. The cross was the goal.

How upside down for my thinking!  The Messiah knew His day was coming and “He set his face like a flint to Jerusalem.”

Isaiah 50:6-7

I (Messiah) gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

Consider the Messiah’s great faith and love for the Father. The deliverance spoken of in Psalm 91 was real and the reward of the Father to the Son. But the deliverance was not as I expected.

You see, the deliverance was not from death, but out of death. This is the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:54 – 56

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Death is the final enemy for us all.

We are to look on the Messiah’s work on the cross, God the Father’s great love for us, and the victory of His resurrection.

This is the gospel and is the great motivator of all holy living and giving of ourselves.
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Author: consideringthebibletogether

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