It has been a few weeks since I visited this topic and I stumbled (not literally, don’t you know!) over the an interesting question that clarified my ignorance, lack of knowledge of Scripture, my pride and arrogance.
Of my struggle over my “low” view of God,
But God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed my ignorance, lack of Scripture knowledge, pride arrogance and seemingly low view of God.
Huh
Take a few minutes to consider the following question with me.
Why do most Christians resist Calvinism?
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Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Considering the Bible 
Amanda don’t give up on scripture!
Romans 10:1-4 —- The apostle Paul prayed for the salvation of the unsaved Israelites; so therefore, since He prayed to God for their salvation, God must be in Sovereign control of whom he chooses to have mercy Romans 9
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There is much to scripture. I don’t give up. I do have humility to know that we can be mistaken. My faith has been sufficiently tried that I’m not afraid to have my doctrinal positions tested too. I know Jesus and He knows me. He has my name written and I have assurance that it will not be blotted out because I trust in Him and seek to obey with my whole heart. That’s what matters most.
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Amen.
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Please read this before our discussion. I’ll see you in our email chat as soon as I can. Looking forward to it. We are all brothers in Christ here ❤ My work is to unite the brethren. https://kindlingtruth.com/2017/07/23/gods-predetermined-will-for-the-election-of-his-children-in-christ/
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I may have to cut and paste and respond segmentally on the above otherwise I will get lost in the conversation. I have made it a requirement on my blog for myself to attempt to answer everything with scripture
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I don’t feel any tension. Sorry if the comment came across that way. These are secondary issues. We can disagree as brethren. Just enjoying a discussion with you. I hope you have a great rest of your day.
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Absolutely not. I meant I sensed some internal tension with this topic. I know I have struggled with how to think about these topics in the past, (and to be honest, sometimes nowadays).
Any, thanks for your thoughts. May God bless you in your walk with Him.
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Oh good! I was afraid I wasn’t communicating well. God bless you also.
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John 17:3 says everlasting life (equals) is knowing the True God
Which God is the True Biblical God? The Free Will God or The one in Romans 9:11 that chooses unconditionally according to election I line with His purpose and will or The God that relies on natural man to come to Him even though the scripture says the natural man has no ability or interest in coming to the True God.
That does not eliminate Natural man making up his own non biblical god out of his own fallen reasoning
Psalms 14:1-3 Romans 3:10-12 John 6:65 1 Corinthians 2:14
If he has no ability, then Jesus Christ could have died for no one if we rely on the free Will god which means the cross was in and of itself ineffectual and accomplished nothing in and of itself and guaranteed nothing.
Brethren don’t have 2 different Gods. 2 John 9-11 These 2 depictions of God are mutually exclusive. I’m not in any way attempting to be rough but scripture has to be relied upon, so as to not lead astray, not natural man’s reasoning or idea of love or the god of his own imagination that was offered by the serpent “ Dying you shall not die” you will be like God “knowing” good and evil”. 1 Corinthians 2:14 God’s word says Natural Man is dead until He makes him alive Deuteronomy 32:39 John 5:21 for 2 examples of who makes alive. Knowing The Truth (The True Gospel) sets free. The Son sets free and makes alive John 8:32,36 The natural man has no interest in the effectual Cross of Christ. He is only interested maintaining his sovereignty according to the delusion of his freedom to choose given in the Garden by God via the Serpent
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I don’t think it’s fair to say that someone who believes in free will salvation believes in a different God. I believe that God is soverign over salvation, but I also believe that we largely experience life as if according to free will. I think the larger issue is when we allow the fact that we all “see in part and know in part” to create division among the brethren or accusations that one worships a different God. That is a bigger error than to disagree about free will vs predestination. Do you assume that if someone has trouble with predestination that they are not a real Christian? I certainly hope not, lest it be said that you are “drunken and smiting your fellow servant.” Lest you be as Ephesus who for all of their trying of deceitful workers have “lost their first love” One error is more grievous than the other. Let’s not “strain out the gnat and swallow the camel.”
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I should give you my understanding of the meaning of The “ Free Will” God. It is my understanding that Jesus Christ paid for the sins of all persons without exception and
God cannot interfere with Natural Man’s Will in whether he believes the Gospel or doesn’t believe the Gospel unto salvation. So, salvation would be conditioned on the decision or Will of each individual Natural Man, a descendant of Adam, and not the free Will god. Is that your understanding of your phrase above “free Will salvation”?
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Yes, that is my understanding of free will salvation, but I still think to say that this is a totally different God takes it too far. Is this a misconception about God? I think so, but I also think we have many misconceptions and we should not judge our brethren too harshly. I don’t see this as a salvation issue. If we believe in Jesus, whether we believe that God led us to Jesus of His own will or whether we believe that it was a choice we made, we will believe in Jesus. Making this a salvation issue, I believe to be an error. Would you like to continue this discussion in private? It feels rude to get into a lengthy chat on someone else’s blog. This is not my blog, otherwise I’d say let’s go as long as you like. My email is kindlingtruth@hushmail.com.
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Yes, I will use the email address to respond
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Amanda. Tale a few minutes to consider “Calvin’s Concerns” blog posts on Considering the Bible when trying to formulate an understanding of God in the area of soteriology.
I was a Calvinist in my past and found relief from it as I considered alternate viable views of Roman’s 9. (The Calvinist linchpin passage)
I also found as a Calvinist that a common method of defence for my position was to erect straw man arguments I could easily demolish. Consider the premise of each topic.
Thanks for reading and commenting. I appreciate the dialogue and the gracious tenor of the communication. May God bless your discussion via email with doubleajwalk
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I will, thank you. I have a YouTube bible study saved from Mike Winger on the subject that I want to watch too. I’m open to changing my mind. The truth matters to me so please do pray the Lord lead me out of error. God bless.
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Mike Winger from Calvary Chapel or Hosanna in my estimation does not believe in God’s Absolute Sovereignty over man’s will or desires. Please correct my understanding if I’m wrong.
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Here is an article that accurately describes my take. I don’t think I fit sternly with Calvanism or the other view. I think both can be correct. It’s a perspective issue. Delete this if its inappropriate to share my own articles here. This is one from my former site. https://kindlingtruth.com/2017/07/23/gods-predetermined-will-for-the-election-of-his-children-in-christ/
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I have tried to make the point that I’m not a “Calvinist” After reading a quote from Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, I think they believed Christ died for everyone without exception. This doesn’t make any biblical sense. John 6:37-44 All the ones the father gives to Jesus come and Jesus won’t cast any of them away because He came to do the Will of the Father. He gives them eternal life and won’t lose any of them. That is a finite amount of people Revelation 7:9 So why would The Father be out of synchronization with the Son and give Jesus a finite amount of people while Jesus paid for the sins of all without exception and the spirit only regenerates the ones the Father gives to Jesus. The only way to synchronization is The Father gives a certain amount of people to The Son and The Son redeems those that He gives and The spirit regenerates only those the Father gives. All unconditional gifts to whomever the father chooses. Romans 9
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I’m not either. I think we might agree on doctrine. Prioritizing salvation issues seems to be our difference. Come over to my site. I don’t usually recruit “followers” because I trust the Lord to lead. We can also continue discussing this by email. I don’t intend to continue here. The site I’m working out of now, if you are compelled to follow, is thelordalone.com. I hope to see you there.
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I will take a closer look. I have visited the post regarding Revelation briefly due to being exposed to your comments and blog address through this website. I wasn’t aware of it prior. You may not have time but if you are able, I would appreciate knowing if you believe I have gone astray from scripture on my blog in any way. I normally do not receive much traffic but I don’t really expect to receive a lot of traffic due to the objective of the blog to use scripture to support God’s complete control irrespective of man’s will. I have to admit I become irritated at the concept of freewill. My desire is to use scripture to show God’s absolute control over all things including man’s fallen will for His purpose and will to demonstrate His attributes fir His glory
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Following. Happy to have future discussions for the Glory of our Father in heaven.
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How do you explain the Lord’s frustration with Jerusalem as He entered before His passion?
He was willing but the people of Israel were not willing.
Seems the people got thier way.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
Matthew 23:37 ESV
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Jesus was fully God and fully Man. Jesus was a teacher as a man. As a man Jesus did not know the time of His second coming only His Father knew.
Matthew 24:36
But about that day and that hour, no one has known, neither the angels of Heaven, except My Father only
Matthew 15:14
Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind; and if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.
In Matthew 15:14
Jesus didn’t seem to be concerned with either the blind leaders or the blind followers. He says leave them alone both will fall into the pit.
Jesus knows His Father is the one who gives to Him the ones He will save and preserve and raise up in the last day John 6:37-44
God’s decretive will cannot be frustrated since He planned it and solidified it from before the foundation of the world. Isaiah 46:10-13
God always fulfills His desires. Job 23:13
Jesus is not concerned about the blind leaders of the blind because he states leave them alone both will fall into the ditch
He is a teacher talking to a false teacher holding them responsible for being blind leaders; leading people into destruction
The point is not that he is frustrated and in submission to their will; But that He is making it known to them (driving the nail into the coffin) that He is holding them responsible and that He would have taught their followers if they would have directed them to Him. He knows that All the Father gives will come John 6:37 and He knows if The Father wants to give one of the blind leader’s followers to Him they will come and He will cause them to come.
Matthew 24:36 verse doesn’t eradicate Sovereign Grace to show mercy to whom he unconditionally chooses .
Romans 9:19-23 says He makes unconditionally vessels fitted out for destruction to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known in order to make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which were before prepared for glory
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No one said He was in submission to anyones will. You are creating a false conclusion.
Also
How can they be responsible if they are not allowed to believe according to God’s decretive will?
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You are always using Human reasoning instead of scripture. God can change and has to change a person’s will to be saved. Ezekiel 36:26 John 3:3-8 Romans 3:10-12 Psalms 14:1-3 even though you think he can’t interfere with natural man’s will and someone will have to tell me how one person believes the Gospel the true gospel that is and another doesn’t. No freewill advocate can give me an answer. They ignore that question. Scripture says God is sovereign in his decision to whom he will have mercy which is in accordance with Romans 9:16 and other scripture Romans 9:15,18 The natural man doesn’t come and can’t come 1 Corinthians 2:14 John 6:44 John 6:65 He doesn’t have the ability because he lacks spiritual discernment because he doesn’t have the spirit. God gave to the man Jesus the spirit without limit. God doesn’t give faith to everyone because He doesn’t want to according to Romans 9:16 John 1:12-13. He told the Pharisees you don’t believe because you aren’t my sheep John 10:26 He didn’t say you aren’t my sheep because you don’t believe That should kill the idea of free will on the spot. If you analyze the Garden of Eden account with Eve you will see the serpent was baiting Eve with free Will through the delusion of gaining the knowledge of good and evil which was a stone cold lie. Natural man can’t tell the difference between good and evil
and Jesus said none are good except for God. They are responsible because God is Sovereign. He has the right to do with His creation as he sees fit His righteousness isn’t to be judged by fallen man’s sense of righteousness imputed from the Garden of Eden. Belief is the work of God John 6:29 If Adam and Eve weren’t able to get it right, how can you put such faith in a fallen nature that loves darkness instead of light. God is saving a people unconditionally Romans 9:11 according to election God promises to save a people and He can’t wait around for someone who has no desire or the ability to come. I will rely on scripture that he shows mercy unconditionally to whom he chooses.
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You are always using human reasoning instead of addressing my question, and dropping verses as if they prove your point.
This time you referred to romans 9 over 4 times in your lengthy text. Your are truly amazing!
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There were other things in the text besides Romans 9 but I don’t see any scripture from you
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Job 1:1
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Genesis 6:7
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I thought I might attempt to reply since you appear to be using this verse to support “free will” and support for your new post Calvin’s concerns – intro to comments
Job 1:1
¶ There was a man in the land of Uz, his name was Job. And this man was perfect and upright, and fearing God, and turning away from evil.
We are not suppose interpret Bible doctrine using only one scripture to my understanding.
Romans 3:10-12 and Psalms 14:1-3 says there is not one seeking God ( The true God) none good and not one understanding. What happened to Job?
If I was going to use other scriptures, I would have to say Job was one of God’s vessels of mercy and was imputed with Christ’s righteousness and regenerated unto belief of the Gospel of God. I assume Job was a descendant of Adam and was imputed with his principle of sin at sometime prior. God always saves a remnant. He saved Noah otherwise fallen humanity would have been done for; so I wouldn’t be able to say Job used his own inherent ability as a fallen man to become righteous; but it was God working in him the willing and the doing for His good pleasure.
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Ok I think I understand how you interpret Bible verses.
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👍
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The free Will advocate doesn’t realize they are using similar reasoning as Eve in the Garden of Eden.
God said “dying you shall die” Did Eve think maybe that was harsh or not nice and or untrue considering the fruit looked good and would make her wise; all the while ignoring God’s Sovereign control to be trusted because His word didn’t fit her phenomenological reality. She ignored His Word.
The free advocate ignores His word because they think it isn’t fair to choose unconditionally based according to His purpose and will. God knows what he created before creation. He isn’t waiting to see what man will do.
That is fallen human Natural reasoning. God said his thoughts are not our thoughts and our ways are not his ways. I see in scripture fallen man cannot become a believer until God supplies the Spirit which brings knowledge 2 Corinthians 4:6
God is making vessels of mercy and making vessels fitted out for destruction according to Romans 9:19-23 Free Will is the idol spawned in the Garden of Eden
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In response to “No one said He was in submission to anyones will”
If Jesus really wanted the Pharisees blind followers to come to Him but they,the blind leaders, wouldn’t let them, then Jesus would be in submission to the Will of the Pharisees or blind leaders.
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And we know that The Lord is not subjected to and or in submission to any man’s Will including the blind leaders of the blind or even the blind followers for that matter. The Lord’s decretive Will was to let them know He was holding them accountable and nothing more can be extracted from those passages.
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No one said God was in submission to mans will.
(I dont know what “subjected to mans will” means.)
No one in the Matthew passage told God what to do. They just refused God’s will according to the Lord’s statement.
Unless disobeying God’s revealed will is actually God’s decretive will.
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“Subjected to man’s Will” Means God cannot ( as you believe) exercise His will over man’s will in other words if God wanted to save one of these Pharisees he couldn’t do it in your world’s frame of reference because he can’t interfere with their Will. My Bible says you must be born from above or your Will stays in bondage in unbelief (and God is sovereignly in control of where the spirit blows) just like the unregenerate Pharisees which the apostle Paul was one; but God interfered with The Apostle Paul’s Will and sovereignly regenerated Him
No one can tell God what to do He does what he wants and Yes it is God’s decretive Will for them to disobey and it was God’s decretive Will to save the Apostle Paul
And once again the point of the passage is to hold them accountable for their false teaching and making more proselytes headed for destruction. Jesus said I would have taken your children under his wing (for teaching) if not for them and since God the father draws and gives people to Jesus I know he is able to steal whoever from the false teachers that he wants and supersede their program of deceit. Jesus being the good teacher would have taught them if they weren’t in charge of them. Just to repeat It is God’s decretive Will for them to disobey
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Again you are describing my position inaccurately. I have not said God cannot exercise His will over man’s will.
I’m sure it is easy pickings to state a position that I do not take in order to find success in your arguments.
But that is fine.
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I guess I thought you were trying to prove free Will. In that case, I don’t see you aren’t using this verse to prove free Will. Your partial quote above “Seems the people got their way.” So, it was The Father’s decretive Will, Not their free Will. He is not giving into a “free Will” He doesn’t want them and Jesus was holding them accountable and responsible for keeping their followers from His teaching. God didn’t want to change their blind hearts at least at that time plus God controls all the thoughts and actions of all things and beings. He turns the heart in whatever direction he desires. He unconditionally has mercy on some and reprobates some from before the foundation of the world. He knows all things before he creates so why would anything on His part be conditional.
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Bottom line …in accordance with Matthew 11:27 The Father has to give people to Jesus John 6:37-44 and Jesus has to reveal the Father and He reveals Him to whomever He chooses which is in agreement with Roman 9:15,16,18 John 1:12-13 John 6:65
The Father doesn’t give everyone to Jesus and Jesus doesn’t reveal The Father to everyone. They don’t receive the knowledge of who God is unless God reveals and gives the knowledge John 17:2-5
2 Corinthians 4:6 The rulers didn’t receive the knowledge from God the Father who Jesus was because if He did, they would not have crucified Him. 1 Corinthians 2:8. In Romans 10:1-4 The unsaved Israelites lacked Full knowledge from God The Father That is why the apostle Paul is praying to God for their salvation.
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Jesus was not frustrated. That is ridiculous. He is The Word was God became flesh; creator of all things. He talks to them on their lower level
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It is interesting that calvsnists would say that people reject that teachings because of a lack of knowledge rather than be consistent with that teaching and instead assert that it is God’s will. I believe in predestination but I think the topic is just too big for us because God is so vast and all knowing. It leads to, in my mind, “doubtful disputations” as Paul wrote of. We all “see in part.” I don’t think any of us are fully clear on the predestination vs free will debate.
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If you were predestined, is it fair to state you had no choice but to become a believer?
I used to believe in personal predestination but it also had a corollary teaching of those that were not predestined to know God. They had no chance – no chance. I couldnt avoid this conclusion and it nearly drove me mad. Loved ones that were created for destruction. Even my enemies, those I should pray for, some were created for destruction.
I agree the topic is too deep to properly fathom, yet we are to seek available truth from the Word. May the Lord bless you in your day.
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How do you deal with what Paul said: “Who are you, vain man, who replies against God? Is it not for Him to do what He will with what is His, to make some vessels of wrath and some for honor.” Paraphrasing but I think you know what scripture I reference. I also don’t understand how grace and free will exist together. If we made the choice to choose Jesus, then is our faith something we conjure? Or is Jesus the author and finisher of our faith – given by grace? I’m not trying to convince you one way or another. In ways I would prefer to believe in free will salvation for the same reasons you state. I just can’t get there, but I know also that God is a person not a thing set in stone, so I pray for people to know Him. He has to open their hearts though. “To who He will show mercy He will, and to who He will He hardens.” How to reconcile it all seems complex to me.
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Appreciate the tension i sense in your comment. I dont have much of an answer other than considering the election Paul discusses as a corporate other than individual.
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