For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. – Rom 11:29 ESV
In the midst of a discussion on the security of the believer, it is important to find passages that deal directly with the topic.
Many believers who follow after the eternally secure (OSAS) teaching find support in the passage we are looking at. God’s faithfulness is emphasized in the passage above, but the application of the truth to the security of the believer seems to be misapplied.
You see, a characteristic of God (His faithfulness) is revealed in this passage, but the object of God’s faithfulness is the nation of Israel, not the salvation of the individual believer.
Regarding the security of the believer, the passage is not particularly comforting.
Conditional Security
This verse is found near the end of Paul’s eschatological (end time) discussion (Romans 9 – 11) on the Jewish nation. Paul is addressing the complex topic of God’s faithfulness to the nation of Israel, and how the church is relates to the promises given to the nation of Israel.
Throughout the Old Testament, the Lord made promises to the nation of Israel. To be considered faithful, God must keep the promises to those who are of the nation of Israel.
But that is the point.
Security Question
How can the promises to the nation of Israel be taken away without reflecting adversely on the faithfulness of God? Is God an “Indian giver”? (I have actually heard this type of accusation in church about the character of God.)
Earlier in the passage, Paul defined Israel as the people of God, those faithful to His covenant, such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Such as Peter, James and John. Such as Simeon and Anna in the Temple, Zechariah, Malachi, Hosea and the host of prophets and believers that were in the physical nation of Israel.
In other words the remnant.
The Israel of God.
Today we call this group of believers the Church.
By the time Paul gets to the last few verses of Romans 11, he is making his closing argument. God’s gifts and calling are without repentance. All those who follow the Messiah receive the gift and calling of being of the nation of Israel, with all of its promises and benefits.
But please notice that it is God’s gift and calling that are without repentance. Since it is a covenant between two parties (God and the believer), we cannot assume the second party in the agreement has no bearing on the successful completion of the covenant. Paul is defending God’s faithfulness to the covenant, not the believers responsibility in the covenant.
Earlier I mentioned that the passage gives little comfort to the eternally secure position. It is important to remember that this topic had to be addressed due to the loss of covenant that the physical nation of Israel was experiencing in the early days of the church. As a matter of fact, the reason the physical nation of Israel lost the privileged status of the Sinaitic Covenant was their constant rebellion against the covenant the nation entered into with God.
The faithlessness of the physical nation of Israel resulted in the loss of covenant privilege. Paul is reminding us that we cannot shift the blame to God, or assume God’s faithfulness will ignore rebellion.
The Babylonian and Roman seiges on Jerusalem seems to lay that false security to rest.
Consider.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion. If you would like to receive daily posts from Considering the Bible, click on the “Follow” link below
4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy,
5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
7 It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.
8 For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus.
9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Recently I attended a Sunday School class that was decidedly of the “once saved always saved” persuasion and we were spending some time in the passage below. Once we arrived at verse 6, the teacher mentioned how important this passage was and how he found comfort in it. He was exulting in the good work of God, that is, to supply Christian security to believers based solely on initial faith at the moment of conversion.
But I had questions.
I don’t think Paul is addressing the eternal security of the believers in Philippi.
He is writing to one of his very favorite church groups. The context is their fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now. Lets break this down a bit.
When Paul mentions fellowship, what is he talking about? The word Paul uses for fellowship can also be translated as partnership, or participation. The Philippians were partnering with Paul in the gospel. Is it simply the fact that they were Christians like he was and therefore they had fellowship?
Possibly.
But why is he defining the time limits so precisely, why does he have the ending clause of “from the first day until now”. I think when Paul uses “now”, he is referring to a very specific partnering, but is being incredibly delicate.
Out of all the churches planted by Paul, the Philippians had one (of many) qualities that made it stand out from the rest.
They loved Paul.
And he was reminded of this love on numerous occasions.
Consider what we know about the first day of Paul’s experience with this group of people.
Acts 16:15
And when she (Lydia) was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Acts 16:33
And he (the Philippian jailer) took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately. 34 And he brought them up into his house, and set meat before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God.
Also, the last time Paul visited with the fledgling church, after his release from the jail.
Acts 16:35-40
35 But when it was day, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go. 36 And the jailor reported the words to Paul, saying, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore come forth, and go in peace. 37 But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men that are Romans, and have cast us into prison; and do they now cast us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and bring us out. 38 And the serjeants reported these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that they were Romans; 39 and they came and besought them; and when they had brought them out, they asked them to go away from the city. 40 And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.
These three passages teach us a number of important characteristics of the Philippian church.
They were an inviting church. Both of the main characters of the church (Lydia and the jailer) invited this trouble maker into their homes. I did a quick review of the book of Acts and could not find another church that was as inviting to the apostle. As a matter of fact, I didn’t find any church that expressly accepted Paul into their lives as the Philippians did.
Verse 35 to 40 need a bit more background to understand what possibly happened during Paul’s final moments with the church. You see, the Philippian church was a Roman colony and as such had the Caesar’s eye on it more so than some of the other churches in the area. A government town. Paul, I think, used the injustice of the beating and imprisonment to broker a deal with the leaders of the City. I thinkit may have went something like this.
Paul “You realize I am a Roman citizen and the beating and imprisonment you subjected us to was illegal?”
City Official “Please leave our city without tattling on us”
Paul “The law of the Romans strictly forbids the beating and imprisonment of a Roman without a trial.”
City Official “Please leave our city without tattling on us”
Paul ” I have friends in the city that I care deeply for”
City Official “?”
Paul “Do we understand each other?”
In the final moments of Paul’s time with the Philippians, he may (or may not have) mentioned that he had discussed some issues with the city officials, He definitely encouraged the new believers, sharing the love of Jesus with them and saying their goodbyes.
Paul “You realize I am a Roman citizen and the beating and imprisonment you subjected us to was highly illegal”
But wait – remember in chapter 1, verse three, where the apostle state they have shared in the gospel from the first day? It is obvious that the Philippians shared with Paul and his companions their homes, their lives and their goods.
Wow – Carl – there is nothing in the previous passage that says the Philippians gave of their goods to Paul.
Granted, that may be a stretch, but they loved him and I think they gave him some moolah, you know – cash. Also, if you look at the end of the book, specifically verse 15 of the fourth chapter, you will find that this church was the only church that supported Paul when he left them behind.
Consider
Philippians 4:10-19
10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. 11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. 12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. 14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction. 15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. 16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. 19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
So lets get this straight. The Philippians supported Paul at the following times * When he left the Philippian church the first time * Twice in Thessalonica * At least one in Corinth * At least once in prison (the reason for the writing of this epistle)
Wow – Carl – there is nothing in the previous passage that says the Philippians gave of their goods to Paul in Corinth. (My my my – nothing gets by you now, does it?)
Consider
2 Corinthians 11:9
and when I was present with you and was in want, I was not a burden on any man; for the brethren, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my want; and in everything I kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
Paul could take gifts from the Philippians since they loved him. (They were not questioning Paul’s motives or reluctant in supplying his needs as some others were.
So, lets get back to the original issue.
What is the good work that Paul is referring to in the beginning of the book?
I humbly submit that he is referring to the Philippian church actively partnering in the gospel through supplying the apostles physical needs.
The “once saved always saved” teaching simply isn’t there!
Guess we will have to look somewhere else for that teaching!
Maybe a commentary?
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion. If you would like to receive daily posts from Considering the Bible, click on the “Follow” link below
Decades ago, when I was just a youngin’ in the Lord, I was befriended by a mature believer. Golly, it was so long ago, I forgot his name, and yet his witness has stuck with me.
He was a safety shoe salesman, hocking his wares from construction site to construction site in a large panel van. He covered an immense geographical region, and was often on the highway. As we got to know each other, he would find me occasionally reading my little New Testament, and would speak of his experiences with God.
One passion Frank had (let’s call him Frank), one passion he had was to speak in tongues. Now remember, I was very young in the Lord, and primed for any teaching. I had little to no discernment and found I gave men much freedom in their influence over me. (In other words, I didn’t test the teaching like I am instructed to!). I was entranced by his witness, listened to his stories and enjoyed his friendship very much.
Frank would drop by and tell me glowing stories of the Lord personally teaching him mysteries that were modern day messages directly from God, directed for him, and all he could reach. He was so charismatic (I mean that in both his personality and theology), it was hard to not be swept away with the excitement.
Until he spoke of a time he was driving down the 401 (North America’s busiest freeway), between Windsor and London Ontario, and he was “slain in the Spirit”. Wow! What does that mean Frank?
He described the rapturous utterances he spoke, of his shaking uncontrollably, and of his visions. His visions, that required his eyes to be closed. While on the busiest highway in North America. While travelling 100 km/hr. In a large panel van!
Golly. Something just don’t sound right!
He spoke of the Spirit guiding him into all truth and of the mysteries the Spirit was revealing in the last days, of the Spirit working through the gift of tongues to bring about revival and renewal, of the Spirit Spirit Spirit.
Enter George.
I have spoke of this fine believer in an earlier post. (See Story Time – Christian Accountability – Obey) During one of my visits with George, he spoke of a “shy” member of the Trinity, a member of the trinity that seeks to be in the background. What heresy am I hearing now? Golly, what is a young believer to do with so many influences?
George wasn’t in the habit of telling me magnificent stories of personal revelations, of visions and utterances. He simply sat down with me, and opened up the Word to the following passages.
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. – John 15:26
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:13-14
George looked at me, and spoke of the witness of the Spirit to be of Jesus, not of the Spirit. Whoa – coming from my time with Frank, it only made sense that the Spirit would speak of itself – how could we as believers not admit the message, visions and utterances were not from the Spirit? Why, that is simply logical, reasonable and popular!
But George challenged me with the written Word, and not with his feelings or his personal testimony in this area of faith.
Did Jesus want us to focus on the Spirit of truth? Is His message to His followers to focus on the Spirit, or to judge the source of the message by the content of the message. In other words, if it bears witness to the Savior, and glorifies Him, it is from the Spirit. The Spirit is the “shy” person in the Trinity, seeking to show off Jesus, and not Himself.
Golly, even though the Spirit has the authority of the Godhead, Jesus reveals that He (the Spirit) will not speak of His own authority. During this age of the Body of Christ, the Spirit mimics Jesus’ self humiliation while He was on the earth, and steps back from any attention grabbing, in order for all the glory to go to the Risen Savior.
My friend – consider your focus, who you are looking to. Looking for the gifts of the Spirit is misdirected, has caused trouble in the church before and will cause divisions in the Body today. It is abundantly clear in the written Word, that the Savior is the Lord, and that as we look to Him (and no other) that we will understand His will and know the truth.
But be warned. To walk as He walked includes a humility and servanthood that is not popular amongst many in the church, many who are supposedly providing glorious messages that God personally provides to them. Those who provide messages directly from God actually become the focus of the message, and the Lord is simply a means to an end for these messengers. I am convinced that the mystical messages are at least a distraction for the believer, for any mystical message that speaks the same as the Bible is unnecessary, and any message that speaks differently than the Word should be rejected.
His message has been given to us. Crack a Bible and read it. Keep your eyes on Him. And let the Spirit do what He desires, and not what you want!
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
This past Sunday, our Sunday School Class was delving into the famous passage of Ezekiel 37. It was a real good class, but I came away with a few questions.
Let’s read the passage prior to getting into it.
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones. 2 And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry. 3 And he said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord GOD, you know.” 4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD.” 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them. 9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. 11 Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. 14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.” – Ezekiel 37:1-14 ESV
The questions I had, started a week previously, when during the same class, it appeared the teacher was implying this passage was fulfilled in the modern state of Israel. I reminded the teacher that Ezekiel was an exilic prophet, that is, that he lived during the 70 year captivity of Israel by the Babylonian nation. I asked him if he thought Ezekiel’s message was intended for the audience of his day, for the surviving Jewish population in Babylon.
After all, the nation of Israel was gutted. If Babylon hadn’t taken you into captivity, well, you were out of “luck”.
15 The sword is without; pestilence and famine are within. He who is in the field dies by the sword, and him who is in the city famine and pestilence devour. – Ezekiel 7:15 ESV
The sword of war would hunt you down. Famine and sickness were locked together in the capital city, with the inhabitants waiting for the end.
24 I will bring the worst of the nations to take possession of their houses. I will put an end to the pride of the strong, and their holy places shall be profaned. – Ezekiel 7:24 ESV
Israel was to become a wasteland, devoured by the Babylonians (the worst of the nations!), gutted of any hope. Totally hopeless!
19 And say to the people of the land, Thus says the Lord GOD concerning the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the land of Israel: They shall eat their bread with anxiety, and drink water in dismay. In this way her land will be stripped of all it contains, on account of the violence of all those who dwell in it. 20 And the inhabited cities shall be laid waste, and the land shall become a desolation; and you shall know that I am the LORD.” – Ezekiel 12:19-20 ESV
My point is that Israel was without any hope, they were devastated, and when Ezekiel saw the valley of dry bones, this was an accurate representation of the nation of Israel. The Lord clearly identifies the bones in verse 11 as the whole house of Israel, and of their utter hopelessness.
11 Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ – Ezekiel 37:11 ESV
When the Lord asked …
Son of man, can these bones live?
Ezekiel must surely have connected this image with the current state of his beloved nation. The Lord was giving Ezekiel a vision of the resurrection of the nation of Israel in the midst of the most hopeless condition possible.
But as I was listening to the class discuss this fantastic passage, I kept thinking of one passage in the New Testament. One New Testament passage that kept niggling at the back of my mind. One New Testament passage was especially leveraged in my thoughts when I came upon verse 12.
12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. – Ezekiel 37:12 ESV
Oh my goodness. Can you hear the words of the Messiah, as He was on the earth, walking amongst us?
28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice – John 5:28 ESV
The Lord GOD will speak to those in the graves, and raise them from their graves. Jesus had the audacity to say that it was merely hours until the dead would hear His voice.
Now I am not going to get into a prolonged discussion on resurrection teaching, but it occurs to me that the general flow of Ezekiel’s prophecy may be fulfilled in the following manner.
As the bones join together, receive sinew and muscles and even stand up, even as a great army, could this not represent the return of the Jewish people back into the land after the first captivity?
Let’s pick up Ezekiel’s prophecy in verse 13
13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. 14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.” – Ezekiel 37:13-14 ESV
Check out verse 14! When, pray tell, may that verse be considered as a historical occurrence? Might Pentecost be the fulfillment of this amazing prophecy? Might the birth of the church, the true Israel, be the fulfillment of this great prophecy, a prophecy of a great army (vs 10) energized to know the Lord!
As the prophet declared, “THEN you shall know that I am the LORD!”
Amazing. He is so good! Praise His name, for His many acts of grace and wonder for His creation!
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
A few weeks back, I published the first of a series of posts offering 60 second short discussions on alternatives to the popular Calvinistic teaching in our churches these days.
The videos were provided by Dr. Leighton Flowers, and addressed a number of topics that related to Calvinism and it’s resultant effects on the believer.
Since then I have provided a few additional videos describing different aspects of a provisionalist perspective on the Scriptures.
The following video, (although not a 60 second short!) supplies a response to the following Calvin Concern.
How can someone humble themselves without God’s help? (Careful now – strawmen are lurking about!!!)
Take a 7 minute break and consider Dr. Flowers response to this question, and try to have an open mind.
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the sixth (and final) portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Original Comment
God is saving a people unconditionally Romans 9:11 according to election God promises to save a people and He can’t wait around for someone who has no desire or the ability to come. I will rely on scripture that he shows mercy unconditionally to whom he chooses.
Romans 9:11 – though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls–
I suppose my friends comments – “God is saving a people unconditionally Romans 9:11” is a bit confusing for me in that the verse does not speak of salvation but of election. I fear he may be equating “election” with “personal individual salvation” and in the proof text verse he has supplied through this series, I have found no convincing argument to agree with his assumption.
Paul gives us the purpose of election, and I find one of the better explanations of election to be found at Soteriology 101.
For this final response, I would like to supply a video for your viewing pleasure and consideration. It is an overview, and under 5 minutes in length.
How about you? Are you convinced that God has “determined” your salvation? Are you convinced that God has “determined” some to burn in hell, eternally, consciously and without relief? How do you see the passages we have discussed in this series?
I have offered multiple times to discuss with my friend over the phone, but without any response. If any are out there that would like to discuss one on one, I would appreciate the opportunity to understand your position.
I thank you for following this series of posts discussing a Calvinists response to an earlier post. I do hope you will join me in our next series of “Considering the Bible” and take part in the discussion.
A few weeks back, I published the first of a series of posts offering 60 second short discussions on alternatives to the popular Calvinistic teaching in our churches these days.
The videos were provided by Dr. Leighton Flowers, and addressed a number of topics that related to Calvinism and it’s resultant effects on the believer.
Since then I have provided a few additional videos describing different aspects of a provisionalist perspective on the Scriptures.
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the fifth portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verse he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Natural man can’t tell the difference between good and evil and Jesus said none are good except for God. They are responsible because God is Sovereign. He has the right to do with His creation as he sees fit His righteousness isn’t to be judged by fallen man’s sense of righteousness imputed from the Garden of Eden. Belief is the work of God John 6:29
John 6:29 – Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
It has been a while since I have published any responses to the “Calvin’s Concern” series, and coincidentally “tripped” over the video below.
The video walks us through a word for word teaching of the passage, highlighting the intent of the verse, that is, the emphasis on the person of Christ. Jesus third person reference to himself when speaking to this particular audience (Pharisees) shouts out the Deity of His Messiahship. The Scripture speaks of Him, and it serves us well to consider the pre-eminence of His person when approaching the Word.
Beyond the refreshing refocus on the person of Christ in the discussion on this passage, to say that “belief is the work of God” seems to be missing the mark when considering this verse. Does not the passage inform us of the work of God, that is that “you believe”. The directive of action is associated with the audience, and the only work directly associated with God is that He sent His Messiah.
Now that God has sent His Messiah, you need to believe in Him.
The context speaks of Jesus answering the Pharisees in their (sarcastic) request “What must we do, to be doing the works of God? The Pharisees, at this point in the ministry of the Savior, were not humbly coming to the Master for guidance, but mocking Him and seeking ways to entrap Him. Jesus refocused them with this verse, by referring Himself in the same manner that God refers to Himself in the Old Testament, and laying on the Pharisees the responsibility to believe in Him.
As you watch this 2 minute clip, humor me as he speaks the greek, but notice the skill this teacher has is walking us through this famous verse. After his explanation, consider the message that Jesus spoke 2,000 yrs ago. Believe in Him.
Let me know your thoughts. I look forward to a cogent and precise discussion.
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the sixth (and final) portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Original Comment
God is saving a people unconditionally Romans 9:11 according to election God promises to save a people and He can’t wait around for someone who has no desire or the ability to come. I will rely on scripture that he shows mercy unconditionally to whom he chooses.
Romans 9:11 – though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls–
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Considering the Bible 