Calvin’s followers seek to justify their teaching with verses that, with just a little bit of explanation, seem to reinforce their philosophy.
You know – the Romans 9 passage, or maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Some of these passages, without considering alternate views (i.e. listening to only Calvinist teachers!) tend to reinforce the Calvinistic thought pattern.
This series of video podcasts will provide a discussion that many Calvinists may have never heard, or considered.
Take a few minutes, and try to have an open mind.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Considering the Bible 
So the video was ok until you get about two minutes into it. I agree with Dr. White, John 15:16 is not talking about TULIP per se. It is, as noted, talking about the choosing of the twelve to a specific office. However, just because that one specific verse is not talking about unconditional election or irresistible grace, does not mean that other passages do not speak of those. They most definitely do. Also, the disciples, minus Judas, were elect as well and they had to be prior to their being Apostles. Judas is an exception as Jesus mentions multiple times throughout his earthly ministry.
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Hey – good comment – Judas is a mystery isn’t he.
If I remember right, the greek word used in John 6:70 is the same as in Ephesians 1:4, where the body of Christ is described as elect/chosen
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? – Jhn 6:70 KJV
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: – Eph 1:4 KJV
I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, “HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.” . . . He became troubled in spirit . . . and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me.” The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking. John 13:18-22 (NASB)
Seems Jesus chose Judas to enable Scripture to be fulfilled
Hey Thanks for dropping in – Interesting thoughts you bring! (Sound yodish, no?)
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Yes, Judas was chosen for a specific purpose, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled. Just as Pharaoh had a specific purpose in Exodus. Hard pills to swallow but Romans 9 is clear that some are created as vessels of wrath to ultimately display God’s glory.
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Truly a hard pill to swallow. I tried to swallow it for almost a decade.
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So can I ask you an honest question? Did you turn away from that fact because it was a hard pill to swallow even though it is true?
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David. Thanks for asking this question. Many don’t seem to want to interact and I want you to know I look forward to your questions.
Anyway, a bit of history.
I have been a believer for over 40 yrs now and was introduced into a calvinist / deterministic theology early in my faith. It made perfect sense to me, being a system of theology built on a logical 5 point framework, and like many, I found much support for the teaching in key passages of the Word.
As years passed, and as I dug harder into the general teaching, I came close to accepting even the third point, that is of a limited atonement.
I was a lone voice in the church I attended and found many mocking my stance. Eventually, my family and I moved out of state, and in that move (I commuted for over a year from home to work!) I tripped over a teacher that challenged me on some of the teaching I believed.
As I listened, I fought (successfully at first) many of his points of discussion, but also realized that I had sequestered my thinking about God to only a deterministic teaching.
This attitude of mine (of only listening to what I considered “pure doctrine”) established an “echo chamber” for my thoughts, and I found that my own self pride of knowledge was depriving me of a vast wealth of teaching that I had rejected without considering.
Since then, I have come to the conclusion that the calvinist/deterministic teaching lacks the support I had been convinced of in my protected state. I often think of the Proverb “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.” One other verse I considered when allowing other teaching into my faith, was the injunction “Test all things, hold fast that which is good” – 1 Thess 5:21
I generally see the Calvinist teaching as emphasizing God’s power over His love, His authority over His sacrifice, His wrath over His mercy. I tend to see the Lord’s mercy, love and grace as that to which He is calling us to, and that His instructions for His followers are a reflection of His own character.
So, in reviewing your question, let me answer using your metaphor. I do not accept the hard pill since I am not convinced the hard pill is true, not that the hard pill was hard to swallow. My friend, I spent years with “the hard pill in my gut”! It would have been easy to simply go on with the hard pill in my gut, than to struggle through some of the challenging teaching good Christian servants were providing for my edification.
In summary David, I would love to maintain communication with you, and I would like you to understand the only teaching I want to hang onto is that Jesus, God’s Messiah loved me and gave Himself for me. All the rest, I will leave to greater minds than mine.
Thanks again David, and may the Lord bless you and keep you.
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Thank you for your thoughtful response. It is interesting that you see Calvinism as heavy-handed towards wrath, authority, etc. I actually see a fine and delicate balance within the doctrines of grace that I do not see on the outside. I would view the other position as all about love, not so much about wrath etc. Very interesting.
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I am a work in progress and am sure of only two things. Jesus loves me, and I don’t understand it.
Thanks for your comments. May the Lord bless you.
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