As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the first portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
You are always using Human reasoning instead of scripture. God can change and has to change a person’s will to be saved. Ezekiel 36:26 John 3:3-8 Romans 3:10-12 Psalms 14:1-3 even though you think he can’t interfere with natural man’s will and someone will have to tell me how one person believes the Gospel the true gospel that is and another doesn’t. No freewill advocate can give me an answer. They ignore that question.
The next passage my friend provides for consideration is John 3:3-8
John 3:3-8
3 – Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 – Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 – Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 – That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 – Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 – The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Awesome passage of the Lord speaking to one of His people, an Israelite – one who is a religious leader in Israel. One who is interested in this new Prophet. Yes he comes under cover of darkness, but Nicodemus comes to the Messiah, and queries Him.
He is joining into a discussion with Jesus, and this shows his desire to understand. Nowhere does the passage state that it is God’s moving in his life that is making him ask questions, and nowhere does it deny God’s actions in Nicodemus life. That is a moot point in this passage.
Note that Jesus states a prerequisite for entering the Kingdom of God, but doesn’t assign any responsibility (either to God or man) to perform the action (of being born again)
Verse 7 may give us a bit of a hint. You Nicodemus, you must be born again. Jesus didn’t state a fact that some would be born again. This statement is in the command mode. You MUST be born again.
It seems the responsibility is squarely laid upon Nicodemus. Again I want to be clear that the specific actions Nicodemus is to perform to become born again are not expressed in the passage my friend supplied. But alas, Jesus begins to give a hint regarding the prerequisite for being born again a few verses later.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Ok Nicodemus – you aren’t even believing earthly things.
- Why bring up the topic of belief?
- Why is Jesus addressing Nicodemus’ attitude toward His teachings?
A bit later in the passage, the following verse pops up
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Nicodemus has been told of the requirement of being born again. Then Jesus speaks of the responsibility of the one who must be born again.
If it is only “of God” that this requirement (of being born again) is being taught, then it follows that God is responsibile to give Nicodemus life in order for him to believe. Yet Jesus speaks of the necessity of faith.
Surely, if it is God that Nicodemus must wait on to receive life before he can believe, this conversation with Nicodemus seems a bit confusing.
I suppose the conversation should have ended with the following terse statement from the Lord.
Just go home Nicodemus – Sure you got questions, but you can’t understand the answers until My Father regenerates you. Then you will have faith, and be born again. That’s that!
Huh. That conversation doesn’t seem to occur in this passage. After reading this passage, I am not convinced my friends position is strengthened, (or even supported) by the passage.
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Romans 3:10-12
The next passage my friend brings to the table to support his theology is Romans 3:10-12. Such a famous set of verses describing the fallen state of man, and the universality of sin in the human race.
Romans 3:10-12
as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
In Romans 1 Paul is describing the Gentile world and their wretchedness in front of God, and in chapter 2, he continues with descriptions of sinfulness. By the time he gets to Romans 3:23, he has made his point. All have sinned, both Gentile and Jew.
Remember the problem that Paul was addressing in the letter to the Romans was the division between Jews and Gentiles within the body, how the Jews were acting self righteous and the Gentiles seemingly took too many liberalities. Division was rampant, and we all know how Paul felt about division!
Could the passage be chosen by Paul in order to level the playing field of the different parties reading it? As we say in Texas, all y’all are sinners. All y’all are in the same bucket!
It doesn’t seem to address the sinners abilities to repent, only that they are sinners through and through, and that they have no power to redeem themselves or even a desire to do so.
Let me try to explain it this way. If I am drowning and not able to swim, and going down for the third time, I am as good as dead. (Ephesians 2:8) Yet if a boat comes along and rescues me, I only need to stop my struggle and accept the rescue. In words that sound biblical, I need to repent of my own works and receive the grace of God through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Is there any glory in the rescue for the drowning person? I think not. Next time you see a rescue being reported of on the TV, notice who gets the glory.
My friend, we are all sinners, drowning in the cess pool of our own filth, our disobedience only growing with each day of rejection. There is a Savior that is seeking the lost and desiring to commune with the believer. He is the One who desires to live with us, or better put, for us to live with Him, for there is a difference!
I think I may have wandered from the topic, and would like to remind the reader that the emphasis of this passage is the universality of sin on a fallen world, and that it does not describe one who cannot react to the offer of a good gift given to them.
The next passage my friend refers to for consideration is Psalm 14:1. This is the very passage Paul quoted from in the previous portion. David’s context is different and it may be wise to consider the background upon which this passage was written
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Psalm 14:1-3
Psalm 14:1 – To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.
Psalm 14:2 – The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psalm 14:3 – They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
This passage is attributed to David, very likely during the persecution of King Saul, or the rebellion of his son Absolom. It is a dark day for David, no matter what and the psalm expresses his utter despair, and his expectation of the Lord’s deliverance.
It is interesting that David doen not say “everyone born says in his heart, “There is no God….” Nope – David has a specific type of person in mind, a fool. This passage my friend has supplied, describes a portion of humanity from Davids perspective. As we considered above, the Apostle Paul applies to all, yet even the universality of sin does not support my friends contention that a man cannot respond to the grace of God.
A good example of the ability of a lost person to respond to God is found in Acts 10, where Peter is told to visit with a dirty Roman centurion. But wait a minute Carl. This fella, in verse 2, is called “a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people and prayed continually to God.” He was obedient to the vision, (whereas Peter had to be shown his vision 3 times!)
What a terrific story, and upon reading it, it seems that Cornelius was seeking to hear and understand, and it was Peter that was a bit reluctant to obey. So backwards to what we should be like.
Nevertheless, Psalms 14 speaks of a type of person that is corrupt, does bad things, does not do good things, who turns aside, and has become corrupt.
This passage describes a group of fools. Paul, in the passage above applies these very verses to his audience in order to place us all in the category of fools.
It might not be comfortable to hear it, but hear it we must.
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the second portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Scripture says God is sovereign in his decision to whom he will have mercy which is in accordance with Romans 9:16 and other scripture Romans 9:15,18 The natural man doesn’t come and can’t come 1 Corinthians 2:14 John 6:44 John 6:65 He doesn’t have the ability because he lacks spiritual discernment because he doesn’t have the spirit.
Romans 9:16 – So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy
Romans 9:15 – For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:18 – So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
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I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
1 Corinthians 2:14 – The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
John 6:44 – No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
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I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
John 6:65 – And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
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As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the third portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
God gave to the man Jesus the spirit without limit. God doesn’t give faith to everyone because He doesn’t want to according to Romans 9:16 John 1:12-13.
Romans 9:16 – So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
John 1:12-13 – But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the fourth portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
He told the Pharisees you don’t believe because you aren’t my sheep John 10:26 He didn’t say you aren’t my sheep because you don’t believe That should kill the idea of free will on the spot. If you analyze the Garden of Eden account with Eve you will see the serpent was baiting Eve with free Will through the delusion of gaining the knowledge of good and evil which was a stone cold lie.
John 10:26 – but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Follow Considering the Bible on WordPress.com
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the fifth portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Natural man can’t tell the difference between good and evil and Jesus said none are good except for God. They are responsible because God is Sovereign. He has the right to do with His creation as he sees fit His righteousness isn’t to be judged by fallen man’s sense of righteousness imputed from the Garden of Eden. Belief is the work of God John 6:29
John 6:29 – Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Follow Considering the Bible on WordPress.com
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the sixth (and final) portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
God is saving a people unconditionally Romans 9:11 according to election God promises to save a people and He can’t wait around for someone who has no desire or the ability to come. I will rely on scripture that he shows mercy unconditionally to whom he chooses.
Romans 9:11 – though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls–
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Considering the Bible 
Car, I defined your position very well.
Please explain where I misrepresent you.
Paul
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Carl,
You ask: I don’t know what you mean when you speak of sovereign will of man?
I am surprised you have not thought thoroughly through your own theology. Probably because you listen to and follow after false teachers.
Let me explain what your theology believes when it breaks down to the nuts and bolts of it all.
You believe that man has free will. That trillions (it could be even more I have no idea) of free will actions are being performed every second. These are choices and decisions being made every second of every minute of every hour of every day. All these free will actions are not coerced by god (I use a small “g” because you believe in a false god) in any way, shape or form and that god cannot intrude/force/overtake/etc etc upon the will of the creature. This means that the creaturely “free will” is ultimately sovereign because god cannot over ride the free will actions and decisions. Your god has his hands tied and will not and cannot do anything about the free will actions of the creature. Furthermore, this god of yours must work around all these free will actions and decisions to bring about his will. At this point I have to laugh 😂 because the will of man within this theology has elevated itself over god and god is bowing down and moving to the sovereign will of man. You see Carl, someone has to be in total control of all things at every millisecond otherwise there is chaos which is what sovereign means. And since your god isn’t in control of the creatures free will, he’s not sovereign at all- to the contrary the creature is sovereign. It is only logical to conclude within your false gospel that the sovereign will of man cannot be changed by god to do anything, especially believe in him. The free will of man is so powerful and sovereign that your own god cannot do anything about it. He sits in heaven hoping and waiting and trying to save the creature but can’t because the sovereign free will of man is in control of his own destiny.
Please Carl, let’s discuss this further because I really do care about your soul.
Repent of believing a man made false philosophical system, repent of believing another Jesus, repent of believing a false gospel! Believe in the ONE and True sovereign almighty God who rules and reigns and controls ALL things in heaven, on earth and under the earth – for no one or nothing can stop His hand!
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Please explain what the sovereign will of man means without questions or referring to what you think I believe. Make your position on the sovereign will of man clear if you can.
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You have done a great job of Defining the sovereign will of man without using the terms “ free Will” and “ the sovereign will of man “ Tou seem reluctant to use those terms even though you believe them.
You already said God can’t and won’t interfere with man’s decision to believe the false gospel that conditions salvation on the Will of man and not the work of Christ’s shed blood and His imputed righteousness alone.
That means man is in absolute control of who is saved and not saved.
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That is called the “sovereign will of man”
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I went back and re read Paul’s definition. Why did you ask me to define sovereign Will of man? He has more detail than required to properly define “The Sovereign Will of Man” and “free will”
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Love rejoices in the “TRUTH” – it does not rejoice in lies, especially lies concerning the knowledge of God which includes the Gospel message. Loving someone means you correct them, you don’t leave them believing and spreading lies about the knowledge of God. The apostle tells us that we destroy arguments and lofty opinions raised against the knowledge of God and yes this includes the Gospel message.
Love – “it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.” 1 Corinthians 13:6 ESV
“We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,”
2 Corinthians 10:5 ESV
I pray you will repent of believing a false gospel and you and your family would come to the knowledge of the TRUTH concerning the living and almighty sovereign God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of Scripture that the Apostles preached.
The apostles did not allow false teachers to preach their heresy- they destroyed false teachings about Messiah and His work and false gospels.
Repent of believing in another Jesus and repent of teaching a false gospel!
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You are a real piece of work Carl. You are unbelievably blinded by your own presuppositions that you cannot read that I exegeted John 3:7-8. Hello!! Scripture to Carl!! Hello!! I am convinced that Scripture is speaking to a spiritually dead man (yes I am talking about you). This is why you cannot see it or read it or understand it. You are the one that did not touch verses 7-8 and yet you accuse me of not staying on the text.
Your readers can clearly see that I stayed on John 3:7-8 and then used the same author John in the same Gospel to the same type of person called a Pharisee one who believes in free will just like you!! Jesus was speaking to the same type of audience who hated and didn’t understand sovereign unconditional election just like you. But you have never ever taken a seminary class let alone a Greek class. I don’t even think you’ve read any scholarly books on the subject you are bashing. I don’t expect much from you Carl but I am commanded to preach the truth of the Gospel to every creature including you. Especially you because your lost.
DoubleAJWalk has done a fine job of defending the truth no need for me to exegesis John 3:3-8.
I will leave you with this Carl, and I will stay on John 3 and incorporate all the Scriptures which stat in the subject of sovereign unconditional election. For scripture interprets scripture.
“The Spirit blows where it wills” for “As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”” And Carl will grumble and say like a Pharisee, “God is unjust to choose Jacob over Esau before they were born and did anything bad or good! “And just like God told Moses he says to Carl and the Pharisees, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”
Romans 9:15-16 ESV
Chew on this Carl! And I will pray that God regenerates you and gives you eyes to see and ears to hear.
On a side note: you cannot pray this way because you believe in the sovereign will of man. You can’t ask God to open any mans heart because man has the ability to open up his own heart. Food for thought, when your prayers of asking god to open up a mans heart don’t line up with your theology Carl, you probably have a wrong theology – 🤷🏽♂️ I’m just saying.
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Thanks for your comments. May God bless you and your loved ones.
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“On a side note: you cannot pray this way because you believe in the sovereign will of man. You can’t ask God to open any mans heart because man has the ability to open up his own heart. Food for thought, when your prayers of asking god to open up a mans heart don’t line up with your theology Carl, you probably have a wrong theology – 🤷🏽♂️ I’m just saying.”
The side note of Paul’s above from what I see is not a side note; but the main note. Nothing more can be said or needs to be said The Gospel of Grace is biblical and the Free Will or provisionist Gospel is the Serpent’s contribution to natural man. They are completely in opposition to each other. Free will is the desire of Natural Man’s spiritually dead heart to the True God that cannot trust God’s word just like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden proved in the Garden. This free will delusion has been watered and grown ever since that time and is the wide path that leads to destruction.
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I don’t know what you mean when you speak of sovereign will of man?
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I’m surprised you don’t know what the sovereign will of man means. You have have defined it well enough for me to understand using other terms.
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Do you believe God has to change the will of natural man so he will believe the Gospel of Christ that salvation is conditioned on the work and person of Christ alone without any effort from the sinner?
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This is in response to your John 3:3-8
I must give u a golf clap for even trying to exegete this passage Carl. However you do receive and ‘F’.
You didn’t even try to handle verse 7 and 8 to which is speaks of sovereign unconditional election by God.
I am not surprised that you have walked away dancing around the verse that smashes free Will like fine dust. Your readers are most disappointed in you. At least I am, but we all know we can’t expect scholarly exegesis from you.
I will leave some exegesis for the readers who desire in depth study of the Word.
“Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.””
John 3:7-8 ESV
Do not marvel that I said to you, “you must be born from above” – yes Carl the correct Greek word is ἄνωθεν anóthen and it is an adverb meaning “from above”. We all know you can’t handle the original language so I will do it for you and your readers. So Jesus is telling him that unless a person is “born from above” they will not enter the kingdom. Please notice that this is a new birth from GOD not from below or from man. In other words- free Will has nothing to do with this new birth from ABOVE. This is Gods work and He alone saves – man has nothing to do with it.
The next phrase crushes free-will to fine powered and this is why you didn’t touch it but ran from it like you always do. Just like the wind blows- so the Spirit goes wherever He desires and blows/falls on/regenerates whomever He wills. The Spirit regenerates and gives the new heart (this is called being born from above) to the elect of God for the Father elects, the Son atones, and the Spirit regenerates. Nicodemus should have known Ezekiel 36 for he was a teacher of the Scriptures.
“I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
Ezekiel 36:25-27 ESV
One more detail you must be corrected on. The Ezekiel passage is intended for Jews and Greeks for regeneration/salvation has always been for ALL the families of the earth- ALL nations as stated in the Abrahamic covenant “I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.””
Genesis 12:3 ESV
Carl, please do your readers justice and handle all the texts correctly. And your side comments against sovereign unconditional election are most annoying and uncalled for. If free will is in the text then let it speak for itself. Your readers are smarter than you think and will understand the text without you reminding them of your free will understanding of the passage.
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You are addressing the source of the eternal life (that is is comes from above) and have ignored the fact that Jesus placed the responsibility of faith on Nicodemus.
Thanks for the encouragement (and the golf clap).
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No my friend- the responsibility is placed upon God (Father-Son-Holy Spirit) because later in chapter 6 and 10 it is very very Chrystal clear that God alone saves.
“DO NOT GRUMBLE” says the Lord, because these same Pharisees (Nicodemas was a Pharisee) new that Jesus was talking about sovereign unconditional election, and Jesus told them that they were not part of the elect of God. So they grumbled about this sovereign unconditional election – JUST LIKE YOU DO! No one can come – not one has the ability by free will to come to Christ. UNLESS the Father draws him – the effectual calling known as regeneration – the new heart- born from above by the Holy Spirit/ etc. and please notice that the drawing/regeneration/effectual call/born from above by the Holy Spirit RESULTS in the raising up of the individual. There is ONLY one person in view NOT two different people (as Arminians like George Bryson from Calvary Chapel would say). This one person who is elected by the Father is drawn/regenerated by the Holy Spirit and is raised up to eternal life. Jesus is clearly saying that NOT everyone has a “free will” ability as you think (you think just like a Pharisee).
“Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:43-44 ESV
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
John 10:27, 29 ESV
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I thought we were discussing John 3:8. Exegesis means an explanation of a text out of the text itself. Not to go verse hunting, finding verses that may have a different context, audience and intent than the original verse under consideration.
You have your soteriology down pat, so much that any challenge to your teaching seems to bring out a defensiveness that is unsettling.
Your faith is your faith. You are responsible for your faith. Enjoy your faith. He is good.
Have a great day, and may the Lord bless you.
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Please tell everyone why you skipped over explaining the words in verse John 3:8?
“ The spirit breathes where it desires”
The Spirit, I assume belongs to the Father and it sovereignly goes where it Sovereignly chooses. It blows where it sovereignly chooses ! Doesn’t it say that?
It does not say it goes where ever it is summoned by the free will of a spiritually dead man who thinks spiritual things are foolishness. He needs eyes that see and ears that hear; the gift of God from above
Matthew 13:16
But your eyes are blessed because they see; and your ears because they hear.
I don’t see any reference that the Spirit goes where ever an unregenerate person makes the free will decision and summons it to come; which makes sense since The Natural Man is spiritually dead and unable to respond because he can’t discern spiritual things which is a good indicator that he has not been born from above; so he can discern spiritual things; but you keep unsystematically approaching scripture.
God must shine the knowledge into the hearts of His people He promised to save; the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:14 2 Corinthians 4:6
And in Psalms 14:1-3 God looked down from Heaven on the children of men. That is everybody unregenerate, a descendant of Adam and He found NONE seeking after (the true) God and NONE understanding . (My emphasis)
John 6:37-44 says God The Father gives people that will be saved to Jesus and He will give them eternal life and Jesus promised they won’t be lost. The Father gives ! The Son redeems The spirit regenerates
Romans 9:15,16,18
Says salvation is by God’s mercy and not by the will or working of man
Scripture interprets Scripture. please just use scripture and not your desire for Free will to be true.
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The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:8
Would it not make sense for the wind/spirit to go where there is “room”, i.e. into a willing person? The spirit goes where it desires. Does it desire to enter where it is not wanted?
Also, it seems the last part of verse 8 refers to everyone who is (already?) born of the spirit. Could this description be defining the actions of one who is already a Christian?
Thanks for your thoughts.
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It would make sense to the one that doesn’t have the mind of Christ; but if you notice scripture reveals that no one is willing that is unregenerate; plus Jesus reveals the father to whomever He chooses and it is not by the willing or the doing of man; but by the mercy of God. The Father gives to Jesus those He chooses for Jesus to save and not lose because that is the father’s will. He is in absolute control and God says he will mercy whom he wills and harden whom he wills and He unconditionally elects and reprobates before anyone does anything good or bad; so man cannot glory.
That is what scripture says; not me.
Pharaoh was a vessel fitted out for destruction. God commanded Pharaoh to let the Israelites go ; but yet God hardened his heart so he wouldn’t let them go.
He caused Pharaoh to sin after he commanded him not to sin. God turned Pharaoh’s heart just like Proverbs 21:1 says. Esau was a vessel fitted out for destruction. Moses was a vessel of mercy and Jacob was a vessel of mercy. The Apostle Paul was a vessel of mercy.
The Apostle Paul didn’t do anything to ask to be regenerated and come; he was happy contributing to the death of Christians. It wasn’t until the spirit desired to blow to the Apostle Paul
The unsaved Israelites that the Apostle Paul prayed for weren’t going to come or ask to come until God regenerated them.
The Apostle Paul knew how it all worked and he knew it was by the hand of God and only by the hand of God.
There would have been no reason for The Apostle Paul to pray to God; if God was depending on man’s free will to come. It would make no sense. God determines who will be saved.
God saved The Apostle Paul by His sovereign choice and Absolute Sovereign control and it had nothing and I repeat nothing that was inherently generated or came from The Apostle first in any form of a response or seeking from within himself; but by the sovereign will and sovereign absolute control of God.
Scripture has to be relied on; not your reasoning or emotion or your thoughts that don’t align with scripture. Jesus said “Thy word is truth” and truth it isn’t found in our thoughts or minds until God puts it there and it won’t contradict scripture
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Again lengthy response, (quantity does not equal quality) but not addressing John 3:8.
Seems you are making claims without the mind of Christ, for the mind of Christ is first off scriptural (ie not dependent on 4 or 5 choice verses) but also the mind of Christ is that of humility and other centeredness.
Consider Phil 2 4-5
Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
You seem to be adamant about your position and refuse others.
Like I said earlier, enjoy your faith.
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I addressed John 3:8
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God is Love. The Holy Spirit is Love. He that has the Holy Spirit can Love. He that has not the Holy Spirit cannot Love. He that believes the Gospel of Christ will be saved. He that does not believe the Gospel of Grace that salvation is based on Christ’s work alone without the help of those he died for cannot love; because they don’t believe the truth; and the truth is not in them; so the spirit is not in them; they believe in free will salvation conditioned on man; not solely on the work of Christ.
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The last part of John 3:8 is confirming and providing a simile that being generated from above “ The Spirit breathes where HE desires” is similarly done sovereignly as it is in “ So is everyone having been generated from the spirit”
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