Atheism, Christianity

Discussions with an Atheist – Part 12

atheist

A long time ago, I was browsing my Facebook page when I came across a post that ridiculed Kirk Cameron’s efforts to sell an “Atheist” Bible.
A friend (who it turns out to be an atheist) seemed to think that Kirk was “uninformed”
Well I thought, lets discuss this issue, and what follows is a record of our discussion.
I really looked forward to his responses and enjoyed considering and responding to his concerns.
Some of my friends comments are a bit lengthy, and as I read them I found echoes of myself, seeking to defend a position simply by supplying a massive quantity of words, knowing inside that he quality of the argument was weak.
If you are a believer in the Lord Jesus, you may find encouragement, and some understanding of an atheist’s worldview.
If you are an atheist, I would encourage you to read and consider my responses.  I seek to understand your position, and if you see a fallacy in my thinking, please comment.  I only ask that you focus your position to one point at a time, in order that I may respond (if I can) without unnecessary confusion.
My comments and responses are in red.

Again for the not recording immediately you even did this experiment in boy scouts did you not? did the story in your case get skewed? … so the likeliness of that is highly unlikely still

Please reread my post earlier, where I tried to explain that it is NOT a multiplicity of oral story tellings prior to the writing of the gospels, but that eye-witnesses recorded the life and death of Jesus.

Probability is not a factor in this. Either have the intellectual integrity to state that these men (the apostles) were bold faced liars who duped entire nations (eventually), and in that lie, suffered poverty, persecution, distress and finally martyrdom (‘cept for John), or consider their record as having validity. These men were eye witnesses of the resurrection!

But then take into account the error of the “creation” …

Creationism is not the issue. You weren’t there – I wasn’t there. All those testing methods sound impressive. Not an issue concerning the Biblical record of Jesus’s life and death!

Jones town massacre….hmmm one person making many believe his story…sounds like religion or any other endeavor with false stories and no hard evidence doesn’t it? Or any other religion that is in practice or ever was practiced…

Religion is a trap! I fell into it, and I fear you may fall into it. I am NOT defending religion! Religion, in my humble opinion, has enslaved as many folk as any “vice” in this world.

I am NOT defending religion!

It is the historical Jesus, and Him only, that I want to focus on. He made claims, that if they are not true, should be considered the worst of lies. If the resurrection is true, and is, as the New Testament states, and is God’s “validation” of His claims, His claims need to be considered .

You have to be honest with facts, Friend. Propaganda, and smear tactics are not worthy of a fella who can think like you.


Hey thanks for dropping by and reading my post, especially if you are an atheist friend.  I hope to hear from you and would appreciate a comment to begin a discussion.

Have a great day.


Follow Considering the Bible on WordPress.com

Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.

Standard

285 thoughts on “Discussions with an Atheist – Part 12

  1. Sorry, not sorry, but even if your god was real? I would never bow down to worship it, as I am a much more moral being than your god is. Why? Because if you actually read the buybull and especially the Old Testament stories of god? You would realize that you are in fact? Much more moral than the Abrahamic god. So here is a small test, based on the stories in the Old Testament about god to see if you are more moral than the god you bow down and worship.
    Would you sick two she bears on 42 kids and have them mauled to pieces for three of them making a joke about a prophets bald head?
    Would you command your followers to rip the fetuses our of wombs of pregnant women and smash the bodies of infants and children against rocks to murder them simply because their parents worshipped a different god or followed a different religion?
    Would you punish murdering rapists by making them slaughter a whole town of people and animals, except for the virgin girls, those they can rape and force into marriage?
    Would you punish parents for their crimes by forcing them to cannibalize their own children?
    Would you order the sacrifice of 12 virgin boys and 12 virgin girls and then have their bodies placed in the foundation of a Temple wall?
    Would you order a father to sacrifice your daughter and then cut her into 12 pieces and send each piece to a different Tribe of Israel?
    Would you order the murder of the first born of other people?
    If you answered no to any of these things? Congratulations, you are more moral than the god of the buybull and most of the followers of the god of the buybull. And if you worship such a foul, evil, morally disgusting god such as this? Ask yourself why would you?

    Like

  2. 1 Kings 7:23 KJ3 translation

    3 And he made a casted sea of ten cubits from brim to brim; it was round all about. And its height was five cubits; and a line of thirty cubits went around it all about.

    I opened a can of worms with the Pi comment by relying on some so called knowledgeable person mentioning that Pi was contained in scripture. Can we really determine anything from this scripture? I really don’t think this scripture was meant to be a math problem and list an irrational number that would go on into infinity but I will defer to someone else that has studied this subject. I wonder if it was perfectly round when they measured it and if it would be possible to make something perfectly round. They measured 30 cubits could the “about” mean it was about 30 cubits. If it had a decent lip, then that would give rise to being an important dimension and including that dimension overall.

    Like

  3. The flood story stolen from the Babylonians How can you say that conclusively Some concoction of The flood story reached many cultures from what I remember hearing which makes sense considering the flood was universal

    Like

      • Leviticus 11:18-19

        and the barn owl, and the pelican and the owl-vulture;

        19 and the stork, the heron according to its kind; and the hoopoe, and the bat.

        I’m not sure I understand your issue concerning the bat

        Like

      • The Hebrew word for bird is actually owph which means “fowl/winged creature.”1 The word owph simply means “to fly” or “has a wing.”

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        You’re giving two answers here: does “owph” mean fowl or does it mean winged creature?

        Like

      • It isn’t my answer I looked up the Hebrew word definition via answers in Genesis

        The Hebrew word for bird is actually owph which means “fowl/winged creature.”1 The word owph simply means “to fly” or “has a wing.” So, the word includes birds, bats, and even flying insects. The alleged problem appears due to translation of owph as bird. Birds are included in the word owph, but owph is not limited to birds. This shows that translators aren’t always perfect when handling the inerrant Word of God.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        The Hebrew lexicon (AiG isn’t a good source) has it as “fowl.” In either case, if you were the omnipotent king of the universe and wanted to communicated a book to your sentient creations why would thing like this be important. Why not tell the people about preventing diseases?

        Like

      • So this definition isn’t good

        The Hebrew word for bird is actually owph which means “fowl/winged creature.”1 The word owph simply means “to fly” or “has a wing.” So, the word includes birds, bats, and even flying insects. The alleged problem appears due to translation of owph as bird. Birds are included in the word owph, but owph is not limited to birds. This shows that translators aren’t always perfect when handling the inerrant Word of God.

        Disease entered the world because Adam and Eve had a preferential desire to follow false Gods. In the case of Adam, His wife, in the case of Eve, the Serpent, that told Eve “you will be like God” Dying you will not die” you will know good and evil like God. Well, if you know good and evil you don’t need to rely on God… that delusion is inherent in natural man God gave the delusion to natural man that man was looking for freedom from the True Sovereign God and his sovereignty He believes he can save himself by his freewill. God is saving people out of this world not trying to make Satan’s world’s frame of reference look good. He is trying to show natural man what happens when you don’t trust Him instead of the father of all lies. Man’s wisdom is foolishness and so is most of his science.

        Like

      • Since God works in individuals, He can bring information within them, to them and can lead them at His will since he causes all things. He turns the heart of the king in whatever direction he wants; so I would imagine he can bring healing information about preventing disease; which we have to some extent if Big Pharma doesn’t get in the way; but it will never be perfect until Jesus comes back to make a new heaven and new earth where there will be no possibility of sin.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        No possibility of sin? Doesn’t that mean no free will? Isn’t your type’s response to the problem of evil that we need to have the ability to choose evil in order to be good.

        Like

      • Exactly, free will is a figment of natural man’s imagination inherited from the fall. Most professing Christians can’t accept that God caused the fall to glorify himself in Christ. Jesus Christ said if the Son sets you free you are free indeed…. that means when he comes again, His people that He saves, will take on incorruptibility and we will be like him not able to sin. The Serpent offered freedom from God in the garden of Eden by stating “you will be like God “knowing good and evil” …. if you think about that statement he was alluding to, you will be able to choose You won’t need God because you will be like Him, knowing… Do you see that the idea of free will became solidified in natural man; but if there really was free will someone other than Christ would have been able to never tell a lie in simple terms or been sinless but the Bible is true there are none that are righteous not one.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        No free will: interesting…that means that according to your religion, and I hope I’m getting this correct: god caused the fall of man, so he could punish us for a choice that we didn’t actually make, so that 4000-ish years later he could “sacrifice” himself (in quotes because it’s not a sacrifice if you know you are going to survive it) and make us glorify him? That is the being that you think is good? Unless I have this wrong.

        Like

      • Man makes choices according to his preferential desire. Adam and Eve chose to go after others gods. Why did they choose? Please don’t tell me free will. They desired to go after other gods because they had a preferential desire within their nature.The Serpent said “ you will be like God” you will know good and evil. Adam decided to listen to the voice of his wife who listened to the (fortune teller )Serpent. Do you actually think that God is dependent on what man does? Why else would the fall occur except to glorify God through Christ? Man is a sinner by nature. That is who he is. God is not a sinner by nature and that is who He is.
        Romans 9:20- 23 answers the way it is

        0 Nay, rather, O man, who are you, the one answering back to God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16

        21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?
        Jer. 18:6

        22 But if God, desiring to display wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,

        23 and that ( in order that)He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,

        How does man get a free will where he has no preference? Then his choices become random, if possible.There are 2 natures that which is short of the glory of God and that which doesn’t fall short of the glory God…. freedom from righteousness or freedom from sin which it is The Son that sets you free from sin and if He sets you free you are free indeed. God creates for His glory He didn’t make man for man’s glory.
        No one has seen God except the Son being the (eternal) bosom of the father that one declared Him.

        That is what he is doing declaring himself to the world in The Son of God
        You either take the totally sovereign God over His creation or you don’t take a god or you make up a god

        It is all about glorifying God and demonstrating His nature and attributes to His creation He knows what he has created and what he creation will do because he causes all things Romans11:36

        God cannot make anything that catches Him by surprise so I will conclude He made you like this since he knows all things before he creates all things

        Like

      • I have lived as a Calvinist for close to a decade and always struggled with the Limited Atonement teaching. Currently, I would describe myself as one who is finding freedom from the Calvinist thought process
        Thanks for your comments

        Like

      • I understand where you are coming from. I don’t like using terms like “ Calvinist” Charles Spurgeon I think was a “Calvinist” and Charles Wesley was a “Methodist” and from what I understand neither one of them could handle Romans 9 … I would describe myself as seeing scripture describe God as Totally Sovereign and in complete control of His creation.

        Like

      • This is from answers in Genesis

        The Hebrew word for bird is actually owph which means “fowl/winged creature.”1 The word owph simply means “to fly” or “has a wing.”

        Like

  4. Sometimes The Gospels have to laid out side by side to fill in gaps. The account of the thief’s on the cross is an example. If you don’t lay out the gospels relating to the account, you might miss the fact that both thieves started out mocking Jesus in unbelief not just one thief.

    Like

  5. Doesn’t scripture say we are being conformed into the image of Christ … which is confined by his working of the willing and the doing… and that he will complete it … when glorified at the resurrection… we won’t be able to sin any longer at all … wouldn’t eternal life also mean we won’t experience the 2nd death of those that are not written in the book of life

    Like

  6. My understanding is regeneration brings faith in the truth …. a new creation brings a continual faith and dependence on God that never goes away… a change of mind a change of life God does that he begins it holds it and finishes it …. John 6:37-44

    Like

  7. I’m curious what you actually believed before… because Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and follow me and never follow a stranger (atheism)…. once you hear and believe the actual truth you can never say I don’t believe … impossible according to Jesus …. He says whoever the Father gives to Him will not be lost God doesn’t fail at saving His people …you couldn’t have believed the Gospel before… Jesus said He that believes into me has eternal life… eternal life doesn’t leave once inside

    Like

    • Please direct me to where it says eternal life is based on one act of faith?
      Also, have you considered eternal life may be based on an ongoing relationship with Jesus and not simply one act of faith.
      Or that eternal life is a type of life, not necessarily defining time of duration but quality of life?
      Just some things rattling around in my head.

      Like

      • Well, I have thought atheism was a false religion…. I tried to get that point across to RxDave … I was taught by a pastor many years ago that worship was a contraction of Worth and Ship …. in other words what worship would be is what you ship worth or value to …. Christians worship The Gospel of Jesus Christ and worship Him as absolute truth
        An atheist in my judgement is shipping value or worth in what he views as absolute truth “ there is no God” The belief comes from within him and He values and trusts that as absolute truth …. that is worshipping or valuing ultimately what is coming out of his heart. With the mouth he speaks what comes out of the heart…. Christians confess and believe what comes out of the mouth that which comes out of his heart which according to the Bible has been regenerated or generated from above….. The atheist speaks but the Christian doesn’t follow the stranger and consequently does not hear his voice but hears Jesus Christ’s voice
        Consequently, the Christian doesn’t believe the false religion of atheism

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        It has come through that you think that. However atheism lacks all of the definitions of religion, i.e. we do not have a central dogma, text, book, hierarchy. There is no belief in a supernatural power. We don’t go to a place once a week to pray, there is no prayer, etc. It’s not a religion.

        Like

      • I looked up the definition of religion. I found this alternative definition or choice

        “ pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance “

        I can’t avoid thinking you place “supreme importance” on “There is no God” I don’t think I would be stretching the phrase “ supreme importance” by equating it to “ your ”absolute truth”

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Firstly, I would say that is a terrible definition of religion. You could say that someone’s job is their religion, their favorite sport’s team, family, etc. It lets too much count as a religion.

        Secondly, I think we have a conflict in mindset. Atheists don’t wake up placing any kind of importance on the fact that there is no god. Generally, I don’t even think about it in my daily life. I am right now because of this dialogue, but I’m going to log off, play minecraft, and then make dinner for my family. God isn’t going to factor into my thoughts at all. Whereas you, and past me, would likely be thinking about god or praying. Atheists don’t do that.

        Like

      • I get your point … but you have faith in what you believe.Therefore you have personally determined that “there is no God” is absolute truth. That is shipping worth to your frame of reference. Worship of self by way of your supreme knowledge and trust of “ There is no God. I think the book of Ecclesiastics fits I just realized I use ellipses as glorified spacers also 😂

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I don’t have faith that there is no god, that would be a silly thing to believe in. I have not seen sufficient evidence to establish that a god exists. I assume you feel the same way about the Hindu gods, there is no evidence they are real so you don’t believe in them.

        Like

      • The minute you say gods that to me is a contradiction because the only definition acceptable to me of God is an eternal God, no beginning no end who created all things … and there was nothing that was created that wasn’t created by Him….So multiple gods makes no sense to me. The evidence of what comes out of Jesus’ mouth is enough to convince me that he is God became flesh. There are 66 books that talk about him Jehovah in the Old Testament and Jesus in the new … He talks like God and acts like God and He is the opposite of natural lying man… the books of the Bible do something man normally doesn’t do … put himself down… man likes to boast… because their father is the devil as scripture says… but Romans 3 says just the opposite and Isaiah says man’s righteousness is filthy rags which I totally agree with since I have heard Jesus talk and read scripture I compare and contrast and He fits what God would and should be

        Like

      • I will try a 3rd time to answer and successfully post .. maybe posting the scriptures made it too long I will just list the scriptures.

        Based on John 6:37-44 and Luke 22:21, I would have to believe Judas was not given to Jesus by The Father
        John 6 says Jesus will give eternal life to the ones the Father gives to Him and He will not lose one of them the Father gives but will raise them up in the last day
        In Luke 22:21… it appears Judas was lost therefore not given. Just because he was a disciple doesn’t mean he was one of God’s elect given to Jesus

        Like

  8. In John 17:17… Jesus said Thy Word is Truth…. He said in John 14:6
    I AM The Way The Truth The Life… He said to the Pharisees or Jews
    In John 5:39
    You searched the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they are they that testify of Me (Truth).
    In 2 Timothy 3:16 it says
    All scripture God breathed and profitable for doctrine….. To say the Bible is just a story or a fable or a lie is to agree with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden who called God’s Word a lie and God a liar by saying“ Dying you shall NOT die” (KJ3) God knows in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you shall be like God knowing good and evil …Jesus said in John 10
    My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me ..they will never follow a stranger ( false teacher, false prophet, false gospel)
    Once you are generated from above John 3:3-8 and know The True God and Jesus Christ whom He sent John 17:3 and that Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9 conditioned solely on the work of Christ and His imputed righteousness and God’s work alone from regeneration to final glorification… Philippians 1:6 then
    John 5:24
    24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believing the One having sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    Once you believe the truth that salvation is based on Christ’s atoning blood and His imputed righteousness and salvation is all God’s work from regeneration to final glorification based on Christ’s work alone without any effort or contribution from the sinner… then you believe the Gospel, (the good news) of Christ and have passed from death to Life never to return to unbelief We can do nothing except it be given from above
    John 3:27…. Rest in the work of Christ and trust that he will complete the good work in you that he has began…. John 6:37-44…. He will lose none of those the Father has given Him … He gives them eternal life

    Like

    • rdxdave says:

      None of this matters, I don’t accept the Bible as true so the words from it aren’t going to be convincing (except maybe Ecclesiastes but that’s because it is so heavily influenced by arguments from Greek philosophy–especially the Stoic and Epicurean schools).

      Like

  9. Please let me reiterate a point about the disciples.. it doesn’t appear my previous note about the disciples went through the system … I will try to simplify… before the resurrection most of the disciples had their own form of weakness; but after the resurrection they became very bold strong and confident… each went off alone to proclaim the Gospel ….. no one gets greatly upset with people that believe in God or do not believe in God as long as you aren’t exclusive … but the natural man becomes furious when you claim Jesus Christ is the only way and narrow path to God based on solely on His Work and perfect righteousness…The Way The truth The Life ….no one comes to the Father but through Him…. The natural man hates that Sovereign God …. consequently the disciples were killed because of that claim…. being alone in different areas away from the other disciples they could have very easily capitulated; if it was a lie because no one is generally willing to die for a lie if they are away from those that could hold them accountable; the other disciples.

    Like

    • rdxdave says:

      Yeah…people are willing to die for a lie, that’s pretty obvious in history, as long as the lie gets them something they can even know that it is a lie.

      Like

      • What did the disciples receive ? The point was they didn’t have to die. They only had to give in to the worldview since no other disciple was around to hold them accountable for not holding to the lie. Perfectly logical to me

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        People get deluded and they are super resistant to admitting that they were wrong. It took me a long time but eventually I was able to admit that this whole religion was built on lies. It’s still difficult at times. Something PT Barnum said (I think) that it’s easier to trick a person than to get a person to admit they were tricked.

        Like

      • I do think it would be ridiculous to think the disciples would give up their life for a lie when they did not have to especially with no other disciple around to call them into account for not holding to the lie…. I absolutely think that could never happen from a rational person that is not committing suicide and roughly 12 individual times matching the number of disciples. Most people would tell their killers anything they wanted to hear to save their life which lends credibility that they knew that he was the eternal God became flesh

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I don’t doubt that they believed it was true, but that it is really true I doubt. Cuban revolutionaries fought and died for the lie that Castro was selling them. Japanese pilots died for their god-emperor, so much historical evidence indicates that people die for their beliefs. The evidence that those beliefs are true? That’s a much different standard.

        Like

      • Yes, the Cuban’s believed it was true That is my point… the disciples knew what they were eyewitnesses to and believed and were willing to die for was true. They believed it was true but my real point that, I think you overlook, is they were alone and could have capitulated to the world and reneged on their claims to keep from dying if it was an actual lie in their minds and they really weren’t eyewitnesses . The Cubans were in a plausibility structure which probably provided peer pressure or Castro influenced control. The disciples believed he was the only begotten Son of God. They believed in the resurrection which is a nutty thing to believe, if not true and that he was sent from the Father. That is a nutty belief to hold up if not true and The only time God became flesh …perfectly righteous. That is a nutty thing to believe. They believed what they heard and what they witnessed. They also knew they were unrighteous and made an eyewitness comparison with His perfect righteousness..500 people seen him ascend… I guess in your worldview, I estimate, it is after you compare and contrast the information available, you decide what you want to rest on .. I believe the Gospel of Christ and you believe there is no evidence for God… or you just haven’t figured who or what God is… but I think it is foolishness as the Bible says to say that there is no God but the Bible says he created all things created and there are no other gods beside him and seriously nothing depicts anything I have seen or heard or read that fits the idea of of a perfectly righteous sacrificial God of Love who is a just God and a savior. My only real point is no one dies for what they know to be a lie if they don’t have to. The world doesn’t care if you believe in God. The World doesn’t care if you believe in multiple Gods. The world doesn’t care if you believe in no god. They hate Jesus Christ and if they did believe in him since they were alone, they could have easily saved their life and said it was a sham and the world would have loved them just like this day and age we live in.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Just to be clear, people like me do not hate Jesus, we just don’t think he was the son of god. Please don’t try and tell us what we think.

        Like

      • There is a difference. The Cubans “believed” it was true.
        The disciples saw thier Rabbi crucified, buried and then against all thier expectations saw the risen Jesus.
        Iwould submit to you that believing something to be true, and knowing it to be true based on historical multiple eye witness accounts are two vastly different issues.
        Both the Cubans and the Japanese considered the information to be true, and gave thier lives based on thier knowledge.
        The disciples did also, but it was not sourced from a lie.
        Consider the difference.

        Liked by 1 person

      • rdxdave says:

        But that reasoning is based on your belief that it wasn’t a lie. Similarly to the Japanese, Cubans, and countless other examples; they believed it to be true–which was my point. People will die for a lie if they think it is true. Thus arguing that dying for a belief means that the belief is true is a false argument.

        Like

      • Let me say it again people might die for a lie they think is true but someone will not die for what they know to be a lie when they don’t have anyone around to hold them to not denouncing the lie that they know to be a lie….

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I agree that no one would die for what they know to be a lie, you lose me on the last part.

        Like

      • I was hoping to convey on the last part that someone might die for what they know to be a lie if for instance the other disciples were with them to push him to hold to the lie but no one would die alone for a lie when all they had to do divulge that it was a lie and save their life

        Like

      • What would you need to convince yourself you have confronted the true God? What would have to come into your phenomenological life where you would be convinced. The Bible says God put himself on display in Christ or God became flesh so we could know who he was. If it is not true, I’m convinced in my mind, you will never find the true God

        Like

  10. rdxdave says:

    Again, I don’t accept the account of Jesus because I don’t believe the Bible is true. That being said, Jesus never mentioned the flood.

    Like

    • Matthew 24:35-38
      The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away, not ever!
      36 But about that day and that hour, no one has known, neither the angels of Heaven, except My Father only.
      37 But as the days of Noah, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
      38 For as they were in the days before the flood: eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah went into the ark

      Like

      • So, if Jesus mentioned the flood then that would confirm the flood and if that doesn’t confirm the flood then you agree with the Serpent (Satan) that God is a liar since Jesus is The Word was God became flesh who claimed to be The Truth

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        It doesn’t confirm the flood. It merely confirms that the character of Jesus, read Genesis. Your argument would be like saying that the events in the Hobbit were real because Aragorn remembered them.

        Like

      • Confirms what character Is he a liar or a perfect truth teller if you don’t believe the Gospel, then you are calling him a liar You want your cake and eat it too

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        You misunderstand my point. Claiming that the flood happened because a character in the same book remembers it, is like claiming that Spiderman is real because Ironman talked about him. Sure the characters are “real” within their fictional world, but you have to bring some outside evidence to establish that they existed in the real world. There is no evidence outside of the Bible that the flood happened.

        Like

      • Sir I think there is abundant evidence of a cataclysmic flood, based on numerous geological formations.
        To say there is no evidence for a flood is telling me that you have not honestly considered alternate explanations of common formations, such as the Grand Canyon.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        There is no non-religious evidence that the flood happened. The formation of the Grand Canyon is explainable without appeal to divine intervention. Geologic shifts about 17 million years ago, formed the basis of the canyon with erosion and the Colorado river doing the rest of the work. If the story that the flood formed the canyon was true, we would expect to have many more canyons just like across the planet.

        Like

      • When I hear millions of years, it strikes me humorously. The average life span now of man is so minuscule compared to his self generated system of scientific knowledge. This is directed at whoever comes up with millions of years… That is something I don’t think is true just like you don’t think the Bible is true

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        That number comes from a variety of things: carbon dating, the rate of cosmological expansion, etc. I find it to be more reliable and predictive than trying to backdate the Bible as Usher did. I’ll ask you the same question since you seem to be a young earth Creationist, is the Earth 6000 years old or 10,000 years old.

        Like

      • There are numerous canyons to speak of, one in Texas called the Palo Dura canyon that I used to live by.
        Also, I understand that at the head of the Grand Canyon, as the flood waters receded, a massive lake was left behind, which breached a barrier and allowed high velocity erosion to occur in a short period.
        If it was a slow erosion as you mentioned, where is the delta formed from sediment deposition? Just some thoughts to consider.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I’ve considered those, however the scientific explanation of erosion over millions of years makes more sense. Because, sure, there are other canyons in the world; but if the flood explanation were true we would see more canyons like the Grand canyon all over the place. Further, the flood story were true, there’d be no fish or plants.

        My question: are you a young earth Creationist, and if so, are you a 6000 year old Earth or a 10,000 year old Earth?

        Liked by 1 person

      • If you want me to choose, I would say 6,000. I heard carbon dating is unreliable. I also was shocked when I heard science was cultural. I wonder if linear graphs of carbon dating depict reality. I think Jesus said Adam and Eve were created from the beginning Matthew 19:4 I think some geneticist scientific organization that studies Y chromosomes claimed to disprove the flood by saying man goes back between 15,000 and 800,000 years That is humorous to me.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I don’t know what you mean by science is cultural. When I lived in the Bible belt (US) I knew a woman who was a 10k year old Earth person and she used to laugh at the 6k year old people because they were clearly wrong. I forget what sect she was in, but the general idea was that trusting the Usherrist chronology was foolish.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I was just meaning I wouldn’t laugh at 10,000 although I disagree but the geneticist that says the flood didn’t happen because man has lived between 15,000- 800,000 years … quite a scientific piece of nothing

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        It’s not nothing. The accepted consensus amongst everyone that studies this type of thing is approx. 300,000 years.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        But that’s just ad hominem, other than “my book tells me so” you need some evidence if you are going to convince me.

        Like

      • Jesus said my sheep hear my voice Please give me a better account of God.There isn’t any book or books that give me a better account of creation and who God is or who he would be and describes man in a degrading manner. Man does not degrade himself like the Bible does Man is a boaster and arrogant like the Bible says. It makes perfect sense to me
        Where else does it describe reality as accurately as scripture

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        There are no good accounts of god, remember, I’m an atheist, I have never seen evidence that there is a god so no accurate descriptions of god could exist.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Do you mean the Earth? Human beings? History? Because there are lots of sources that I could direct you to.

        Like

      • This is a crappy world with bad people . The Bible tells us how bad. The Bible depicts man’s nature very well. Jesus said you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children. That says a lot and a most accurate depiction of my phenomenological reality. Man is prideful arrogant a liar selfish delusional . I can’t take science that says man has been around for 300,000 years … if God created the earth in a matter of hours…. and he could have done it instantaneously, the earth would have inherent age that the scientists think is linear They make assumptions that could be totally untrue so why put your faith in them

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        First off, you’ve highlighted my exact problem with all religion: I don’t think that this world is crappy and that its full of bad people. I’m not evil, Jesus is wrong, he doesn’t know me. Yet all religion, especially Christianity claims that being born in this world is somehow a curse. If you want to live with that kind bleak outlook, that’s on you, I’m rather happy I get to live in this time.

        And it has nothing to do with the age of the Earth and how long humans have been around. The Bible gets so many natural world facts wrong: bats aren’t birds, rabbits don’t chew their cud, the Earth isn’t flat, mustard seeds are not the smallest seed, etc.

        I don’t have faith in them, I have read their evidence and it is convincing. For example: do you agree that the elements undergo half life decay?

        Like

      • Live in this time, you must not be paying attention to reality and are listening to propaganda. I heard a Dr say that they sat in on a presentation on new technology awhile back and the scientist speaking said God creates life …now man is God because he can create life … Jesus said man is evil… so if don’t fall short of the glory of God then you must still have the delusion stamped in your nature that was stamped in man’s nature at the time of the eating of the fruit. “ you will be like God” “knowing good and evil. Everyone has lied just to keep it simple none are righteous not one…Also, I was thinking if man was around for 300,000 years, he would have destroyed himself 5 times over

        Like

      • I don’t like religion either
        Isn’t the name Dinosaur a modern term ?🦕 Flat earth – it looks flat if you walk outside your house

        …if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move… – Matthew 17:20
        Where does it say the mustard seed is the smallest seed? It doesn’t say that. Please give me the scripture about the rabbit and the cud I will have to look into that.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I was going to post Leviticus 11:6 about rabbits and the cud, but now you are claiming that Earth is flat. Really?

        Like

      • No, I’m not saying the earth is flat just if you walk outside you would never know it is round. Did you go to answers in genesis.org to get an answer to your rabbit issue?

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        But science tells us it is round, that goes back to Aristotle.

        And no, I’m not going to AIG for their weird interpretations of the plain language of the book. If the omnipotent god of the universe wrote the Bible then it should not have errors in it and it should not be possible to misinterpret it.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        The story in Matthew where Satan takes Jesus up and shows him all of the kingdoms of the Earth (Mtthew 4:7-9)…only possible on a flat Earth. The phrase four corners of the Earth appears, which is not the shape of a globe. I was raised to not take them literally, but if you are using the book literally as a science book then the Earth is depicted as flat in it (along with the Quran which also has the same problem).

        Like

      • You really think a physically high mountain would do it Flat or not flat just might be figuratively speaking How did Satan get Jesus on top of the mountain? I wouldn’t rely on man science to answer this question There isn’t enough information to do anything other than speculate which man science does a lot of speculation Like their geneticist proof that the flood didn’t happen because the Y gene goes back to 15,000-800,000 years ago pure non sense and wishful thinkibg

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Don’t change the subject. Your book claims it happened–which means the Earth is flat because there were kingdoms in China and the Americas that would need to be seen. So either the book is wrong or the Earth is flat.

        The story of the flood is stolen from the earlier Epic of Gilgamesh. It has no physical proof.

        You spend a lot of time bashing man’s science while we have this conversation on the fruits of that science. At least the Amish are consistent about technology.

        Like

      • The scripture claims it but I don’t know if he levitated or was given a vision in the mind or it is figurative for us to understand but never less the earth stretches a long way so even a tall mountain wouldn’t let him see all the kingdoms of the world. What about future kingdoms that are under Satan’s control. Did he see those kingdoms? I think the whole stinking point was Satan is the ruler of this world which Jesus confirmed but Jesus conquered spiritual death or the 2nd death giving Him the right to save His people that he promised to save in Matthew 1:21

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        The book claims he was taken, not given a vision. So are you claiming that we shouldn’t trust the words in the book? Why did god let Satan rule the Earth that seems like a dumb thing to do.

        Like

      • Taken can mean by vision as long as he can see. Did he levitate ? I doubt he walked or went by train or plane plus it doesn’t say how high the mountain was. I still think the issue was to let us know Satan was behind the frame of reference of all the kingdoms of the world and that Christ was a perfect representative that trusted completely as a man in the Father and He was able to do this because He was God became flesh as the substitute for those he came to save. Adam and Eve failed to trust in the true God in the Garden of Eden and decided to trust in false gods; Eve trusted the Serpent and Adam trusted his wife because God caused this so he could be glorified in Christ and put himself on display to fallen mankind in order to demonstrate the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        So we aren’t trusting the literal words anymore? How do you discern which literal words are to be taken that way and which are subject to interpretation? Isn’t this just cherry picking for convenience’s sake.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        They would say that you have done so and you are the heretic because Jesus bequeathed his worldly authority to Peter and all should follow him.

        Like

      • Another Catholic creation of making void the word of God by their tradition -They distort the meaning of the scriptures -Matthew 16:18 Peter was 1 of the 12 apostles answering the question by Jesus – Matthew 16:15 Peter answered -The answer that Peter gave was the rock that Christ will build His assembly on ….” “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” it is not something ambiguous

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        They would say you are distorting it. I’ve had very similar conversations with Catholics (and Mormons) about this subject.

        Like

      • The Greek says I’m right there are 2 words for rock 🪨 Peter Little Rock and what Jesus said massive rock
        Common sense says the assembly would be built on the Gospel not a man – that would mean Jesus meant I’m only building my assembly through Peter The Roman Catholic Church That is totally nuts

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        In Matthew the phrase is “taketh him up.” It seems pretty clear that it was a physical move. In Luke it’s “set him up upon.” In both cases the literal interpretation, which you reject, is a physical movement.

        Like

      • There is no reference to it being physical to make it a necessity; unless he levitated Him which is possible . A vision could also fulfill “set him upon” or “taketh him up”

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        You’re doing some mental gymnastics here. Plain reading of ordinary words. Look, I know the world is round, you know it, the writer of the Bible does not or it’s metaphorical. If it is the latter then that makes Bible “literalism” an untenable position and then it becomes arbitrary as to what parts we are supposed to take literally and what parts figuratively.

        Like

      • I just don’t think it is practical to think he walked up to a 70,000 foot mountain. I’m not even sure that height would give the ability to see all kingdoms and future kingdoms. I think taking him high on a mountain is for our benefit of learning figuratively “the whole world”and a vision seems more likely since he could view all the kingdoms of the world but I still wonder how Satan would be able to show future kingdoms…. So, I think it is figurative for our benefit to show that all the kingdoms of the world were living after Satan’s frame of reference or nature and that Jesus did not fall.

        Like

      • After re- reading the KJ3 translation Matthew 4:5 and 4:8, I’m leaning towards levitation since “ he (Devil) sets him on the wing of the temple.” … the devil takes Him to a very high mountain” Demons like to levitate people but the problem I’m having about “ shows to Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory” you can’t do that from a mountain top … I’m thinking the Devil possibly levitated Him to the mountain and then showing the kingdoms and glory was by a vision; but the point was Jesus was tempted with kingdoms the devil was controlling and Jesus as a man did not fail.

        Like

      • The point is for unbelievers like yourself to be given knowledge that Christ is perfect and without sin and cannot be tempted and that Satan was defeated. Eventually God would prove with eye witnesses that this same Jesus not only could not be tempted by Satan himself – but that Christ would pay the sin debt of His people and rise again from the dead!

        Like

      • I don’t put my faith in man -Look around you. Do you see man as reliable? -I put my faith in the one that fits who God would be and described in the 66 books. The one that doesn’t lie and gave me a reason as to why and what we are going through. No where else or anyone else even comes close to giving the answers for this degenerate world.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I’ll put my faith in the beings that are actually present and actually do something. Humans developed the vaccine for Covid not god–the being that created it because you don’t believe in evolution so therefore he’s responsible.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I have. And it seems that you have two categories: one is science that you find useful and is ok according to your religion (like the computer you type on, the wifi/internet you are using right now). The other is the stuff you’ve arbitrarily decided is bad. Which means: you’re just making choices based on preference rather than what your god actually says.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        You have proof of your dangerous vaccine claims of course? Is it Bill Gates and microchips because if so, there’s no reason to continue talking.

        What I am saying is that you call it man’s science when it proves the Bible is wrong. But when it makes your life more convenient or you like it, it’s a good. Even though both are the fruits of the same tree (metaphor fully intended).

        Like

      • Go to brighteon.com and work from there outward look up the video if not banned 32 doctors warned against taking the vaccine
        Nothing has been shown in provable science that has demonstrated the Bible is faulty I’m sure the Bible writes about things that haven’t been discover That I know has happened that cities were discovered after the Bible wrote about them The mathematical Pi was in the Bible before discovered but the bottom line there is no place to find God became man other than the Bible There no other place period.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Science doesn’t disprove the bible because you don’t prove a negative. What has happened is that there is no evidence that Noah’s flood happened (again it was stolen from the earlier Epic of Gilgamesh), the sun never stood still so that Joshua could continue murdering people, and stars cannot fall into the Earth as is “predicted” in Revelations.

        Pi is wrong in the Bible. 1 Kings 7:23 has it at three. Now AiG pushes this crazy theory that the circumference is measured at one point and the diameter at another (like if the molten sea had a lip or something); but there is no reason that anyone would measure anything like that. The Greeks were doing math long before the Hebrews and well before the Christians were throwing ancient science books into fires.

        Like

      • I have settled on one phenomenological piece of evidence, the chaotic bunch or collection of misplaced fossils both sea and land creatures in a chaotic mix settled together on high land -that is enough for me to be explained by the universal flood because it should not be . I attribute that physical evidence to the flood. Really don’t need science to come to that conclusion.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Because it won’t come to that conclusion, the flood is just a couple of chapters in Genesis that was copied from an earlier Babylonian story. It never happened .

        Like

      • I have heard explanations of the heathen accounts but I can’t remember the points I boil it down to Christ God became flesh … You haven’t given me anything better The Bible explains man Where do you go to get an explanation of man’s horrendous nature

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        And I already addressed this: no one would measure a bowl’s (or cauldron’s) width and circumference at two different locations. That’s absurd. The overall point I have been trying to make is that, if this book is the inerrant word of the omnipotent creator of the universe than why is it so hard for it get anything correct without all the intellectual hoop jumping? Clearly occam’s razor applies: the author of the book though he had the math right but didn’t.

        Like

      • I need to apologize for jumping into this based on someone else’s research or comment. I’m not even sure if this was the scripture 1 Kings 7:23 was their reference. I think you are saying the 30 cubits circumference should be greater based on a diameter of 10 cubits. I looked up the shape of a cauldron and the one I looked at doesn’t have the same circumference at all levels of the cauldron.

        Like

      • I looked at a picture of a cauldron in my estimation there isn’t any way you can develop an issue about Pi if the diameter on top of the brim and the circumference on top of the brim actually wasn’t the circumference measurement actually measured by was measure on the body circumference and which may have a different and greater measurement.

        Like

      • I sort of like the 4” rim theory producing a circumference of 30 cubits while rim to rim is 10 cubits diameter. Anyway you slice this I don’t in my opinion think there is any reason to make a stink bomb out of this

        Like

      • I mean thickness not rim and brim not rim this cauldron is making me dingy anyway the math guy can come up with the math of 30 cubits circumference
        “1 Kings 7:26
        This gives another possibility for the 30 cubits circumference considering the 4” inch thickness in my opinion there isn’t enough information to make a stink bomb out of this
        Quote:
        2) In ( 1 Kings 7:26 ) we read the vessel “was wrought like the brim of a cup.” That is the brim on the top of the vessel was wider than the main part of the vessel. The diameter would be given for the brim. If the brim or lip extended about four inches past the main body of the vessel then the outside circumference of the main part of the vessel would be exactly thirty cubits.

        Like

      • With this explanation, I don’t think we can be adamant about creating a stink bomb
        Taken from John Gill’s commentary and pasted
        “ Sceptics have ridiculed the Bible for saying that the mathematical constant (p) is 3 instead of the more precise 3.14159. (This number is an “irrational number” and needs an infinite number digits to specify it exactly.) Two explanations for the apparent lack of precision in the measurement are given.

        1) The circumference given may be for the inside circumference and the diameter may be the diameter including the thickness of the rim. This would yield a very accurate mathematical result for the inside circumference of thirty cubits. The outside circumference would be about 31.4 cubits giving a rim thickness of four inches or an hand breadth agreeing with ( 1 Kings 7:26 ) .

        2) In ( 1 Kings 7:26 ) we read the vessel “was wrought like the brim of a cup.” That is the brim on the top of the vessel was wider than the main part of the vessel. The diameter would be given for the brim. If the brim or lip extended about four inches past the main body of the vessel then the outside circumference of the main part of the vessel would be exactly thirty cubits.

        In each case the mathematical ratio for circumference of the circle is (p) d, where “d” is the diameter and (p) is the number 3.14159 ….. For a more complete discussion on this see the article by Russel Grigg. {r}. Editor.)

        Like

      • Like I said before I never really looked into this but from this verse there doesn’t seem to me to give enough information to determine anything conclusive about Pi the word “about” strikes my attention
        1 Kings 7:23 King James 3 translation

        23 And he made a casted sea of ten cubits from brim to brim; it was round all about. And its height was five cubits; and a line of thirty cubits went around it all about.

        Like

      • 1 Kings 7:24 KJ3 translation

        24 And gourds were below its brim all around, going around it, ten by the cubit, circling the sea all around; the gourds were cast in two rows when it was cast.

        Like

      • Joshua 10:11

        11 And it happened, as they fled from the face of Israel, they were in the descent of Beth-horon, even Jehovah cast great hail stones on them out of the heavens, to Azekah; and they died. The many who died by the hail stones were more than the sons of Israel had killed by the sword.

        If God can send hail stones he can stop the sun- We weren’t there Jehovah talked one on one to several people in the Old Testament and by Jehovah Jesus in the New Testament and no one has seen him in this day and age to my knowledge This whole exercise we are going through boils down to me to whether you believe or not
        The disciple Peter said it best John 6:68 KJ3 translation

        68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life.

        Like

      • Sceptics have ridiculed the Bible for saying that the mathematical constant (p) is 3 instead of the more precise 3.14159. (This number is an “irrational number” and needs an infinite number digits to specify it exactly.) Two explanations for the apparent lack of precision in the measurement are given.

        1) The circumference given may be for the inside circumference and the diameter may be the diameter including the thickness of the rim. This would yield a very accurate mathematical result for the inside circumference of thirty cubits. The outside circumference would be about 31.4 cubits giving a rim thickness of four inches or an hand breadth agreeing with ( 1 Kings 7:26 ) .

        2) In ( 1 Kings 7:26 ) we read the vessel “was wrought like the brim of a cup.” That is the brim on the top of the vessel was wider than the main part of the vessel. The diameter would be given for the brim. If the brim or lip extended about four inches past the main body of the vessel then the outside circumference of the main part of the vessel would be exactly thirty cubits.

        In each case the mathematical ratio for circumference of the circle is (p) d, where “d” is the diameter and (p) is the number 3.14159 ….. For a more complete discussion on this see the article by Russel Grigg. {r}. Editor.)

        Like

      • You don’t mind that hydrogel and a luciferase or luciferin enzyme is in the injection? If you don’t have a problem with that ,we don’t need to talk Are you ok with modified RNA or DNA in the injection?

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        No I’m not…because I don’t think just because something contains the latin word “lucifer” that it is going to summon the devil. Do you think that just because it has those letters in that order its evil? (Also I checked a few sources and cannot find which vaccine contains those ingredients). Epoch times said so but I’m not going to trust a website run by the Chinese apocalypse cult falun gong.

        And yes, I am quite ok with modified RNA and/or DNA. Do you think that their presence will change you into something else?

        Like

      • They didn’t divulge all ingredients in the injection. They didn’t make public a lot things relating to whole thing. Watch the video with 32 doctors around the world warning against the “vaccine” if you can find it -the term lucifer is secondary to the issue -I haven’t studied the math issues to the extent you have relating to Hebrews versus the Greeks. I gave you the websites on the “vaccine” issue. Your choice to trust or not to trust

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        All of the ingredients are available on the CDC website. What you are saying are scaremongering accusations devoid of actual evidence. You have 32 doctors, the rest of us have all of the others.

        You brought the Pi thing into it.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        No you don’t. You have been pretty explicit that you don’t trust “man’s science.” You only believe these people because you already had a preconceived notion that the vaccines were evil/harmful or whatever, and then you looked for anyone that agreed with you. Why are the significantly greater number of medical doctors that have studied communicable diseases that endorse and have developed the vaccines are wrong?

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        You’ve said repeatedly that you don’t trust man’s science. Are not these medical doctors men? Why are these the ones that you trust and not the vast majority of others?

        Like

      • I heard doctors normally during their medical training receive 1/2 day of information on vaccines during their 8 years in medical school and most just follow protocol, I’m assuming. After listening to a few doctors that have studied the issues of vaccines for years and are very familiar with past testing data and issues with this new technology in this new breed of injections, the information they provided convinced me this new technology presents some worrisome unpredictability and has unproven effectiveness; among other things that are entering into this push and are troubling to me but everyone has to make up their own mind and study the issue.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        And what makes these two individuals more knowledgable than all of the rest of the world’s doctors? And one more question and I’ll let you go: Why do religious people hate medical science generally and vaccines specifically?

        Like

      • Dr Carrie has studied the subject for 20 years including this present “ vaccine” technology and Dr Sherrie Tenpenny, I think, has a comparable background I don’t really think religious people hate medical science when it works. I don’t like symptom treating myself instead of treating for cures. Did you watch a few videos ? Particularly, one I can’t find and probably was taken down “Coronavirus and vaccination Crime”
        On Brighteon.com … Look at who funds the medical schools and their bias for pharmaceutical medicine.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Not the question I asked. I asked why you think that the four (or five) individuals you have are more authoritative then every other medical professional and organization in the world.

        Religoius people have historically opposed vaccination since smallpox. They bring up objections to medicine with an alarming frequency. I know that some Muslim and Jewish sects are wary of “uncleanliness” but there is nothing in that for the Christians…except Christian Science which rejects all physical reality as being nothing but an illusion. Christians opposed the Vellius because he counted the ribs in dead bodies to determine that men and women had the same number. Any medical breakthrough seems to require that it jump a religious objection first, especially Christian, and I wonder why you people reject it. Is it because it affronts god’s will? If you would be so kind, could you DM me through wordpress, I think we’re tying up the initial posters’ blog a bit.

        Like

      • To your original question why do I trust 4 or 5 There are more but the real question is does mass mania occur and ignorance absolutely. Have you actually studied how many people get screwed up from vaccines and this one works in relation to your own immune system Medical science seems to kill a fly with cannon and the canon destroys a lot of other things as well As far as Adam’s rib being 1 less. I wasn’t able to view the body but I’m sure his genetic structure remained in tact that would produce in his descendants the same amount of ribs as Eves descendants she was made from a rib and didn’t actually get an extra one Jesus said what goes into the body doesn’t defile it but one comes out of the heart The body is dead will be dead in the end so don’t worry about the uncleanness that goes not ignoring being stupid by filling it with crap

        Like

      • Another point most doctors just follow protocol; so I would trust a few doctors that have deeply looked into the overall program of vaccines and it’s side effects and serious illnesses it causes then the ignorant majority. I have to admit there was a day when I trusted unintentionally ignorant doctors. What really pissed me off is when a doctor wanted to give a 4 year old an antacid pill for a stomach ache…. which adds to the problem (hopefully you don’t make me explain that) anyway a good probiotic solved the problem.
        When doctors give out antibiotics like Candy, it kills off your own immune system which I at one time was ignorant of the fact. People don’t question doctors. I would like to avoid the canon to kill a fly whenever possible. My Biochemist nutritionist once said that pharmaceutical Doctors were basically are only good for surgery who in my opinion can get rid the source of the problem but with pharmaceutical doctors most treatments just treat symptoms. Please don’t ask me any more questions. Just do your own exhaustive research and make you own decision I have done enough to satisfy my self. You seem to have convinced yourself the Bible is just a made up story which was an extraordinary accomplishment from any perspective; but I have heard enough from the mouth of Jesus for myself to trust the opposite. There are cheap remedies for this virus problem so ask yourself (not me)why are we killing a fly with a canon? $$$$$

        Like

      • I took someone’s else’s info on the Pi account but you are forcing me to waste my time because there are people I’m confident , have already explored this and have an explanation. You tried to use the mustard seed as being the smallest seed knowing it wasn’t the smallest seed but you had to know the scripture -Jesus referred to the mustard seed as small but He never did refer to it as being the smallest seed. I really don’t want to get bogged down researching that; I’m confident someone has answered your objection

        Like

      • I think you are telling me that all man science is true even when it is unprovable So, when the Y chromosome geneticist says man goes back between 15,000-800,000 years I’m suppose to believe it
        I would think your ability to scrutinize would be all over that one

        Like

      • The much elevated chaotic bunch of land and sea fossils bunched together is enough physical evidence for me to prove the flood The fact that the canopy of water above the expanse is gone is another reason for believing the flood occurred but I can’t help bringing up the side note from the so called Y chromosome geneticist experts that say the flood didn’t happen because man existed just after the proposed time of the flood and man goes back between 15,000- 800,000 years. That is not science when you put forth something with such ridiculous variance and then they have the nerve to be serious about it.

        Like

      • Here is a thought that would put doubt on your flat earth. What if Satan laid out a vision which the mountain height was figurative to allow us to know it covered all the kingdoms on earth or the area in entirety; but the actual kingdoms shown in the vision were 2 dimensional as places one at a time rather than allowing you to see a flat earth or a round earth. Doesn’t seem plausible to me to actually be on a mountain top. Are we suppose to believe for a fact and not figuratively that he actually took him to a 50,000 foot mountain by levitation if that is even enough to see all the kingdoms of the earth You wouldn’t be able to see all the kingdoms of the earth even from a high mountain. There is no reference to Jesus seeing a flat earth only kingdoms. How those kingdoms materialized we don’t know but we do know all the kingdoms of the world are coming from Satan’s point of reference as ruler of this world We are really suppose to think this verse confirms a flat earth?

        Like

      • Answers in Genesis I just copied the conclusion about the rabbit chewing his cud

        Conclusion

        So is the Bible in error here? No it is not. Rabbits re-ingest partially digested foods, as do modern ruminants. They just do so without the aid of multiple stomach compartments.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Partially digested food is not the “cud,” it’s different; the book is not a science book.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Your problem is that while a rabbit will do this sometimes (for that matter so will a human baby) it is not an animal that needs to do so….like a cow or goat.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        No, but they will do it occasionally, which is what AiG is claiming counts with rabbits. AiG is a bad source, they’re not dispassionate or objective.

        Like

      • My first impression is rabbits don’t spontaneously regurgitate without a purpose but by design but baby’s do regurgitate without a purpose not by design

        Like

      • The fact you are bringing up a baby’s regurgitation in comparison to the rabbit design of re ingesting digested food as part of their design makes me question what your goal is. I looked up the definition of cud but you say that isn’t the definition

        Like

      • Cultural was being applied to science being culturally influenced …I heard that from Dr Robert Morey He claimed to have an IQ of 185 so I just accepted it

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        that’s an interesting spread, but human beings go back further than 15000 years, the Earth certainly more than 6k, as well as the universe; and this is based on much more science than just carbon dating which is generally reliable it’s how they determined the age of the dead sea scrolls.

        Like

      • I don’t trust any science that claims 15,000-800,000 years …if God created the heavens and earth in a few hours then there would be inherent age to thow off the man science

        Like

      • I don’t believe there is any reason to say no fish or plant would survive the flood. A sliver of a thought to me says maybe the high currents slamming fish to death wasn’t in all areas. I don’t think it is stretching the concept that some survived and some didn’t survive

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        It has nothing to do with currents, I hadn’t even thought about that. It has to do with salt content of the water. If you’ve ever tried to sustain a saltwater fish tank you would understand how dumping forty days of freshwater would have killed all of the ocean fish and subsequently all of the freshwater fish. Plants can’t survive underneath water with no air or sunlight for forty days.

        Like

      • I wouldn’t know whether they could or couldn’t survive but can’t seeds survive. There was a lot of sea water to begin with so I wouldn’t hang my hat on that point

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        They can’t, you can test this. Take a flower, in a pot. Put that pot in a deep bucket. Submerge the plant underneath water for forty days and forty nights (we’re going to ignore the water pressure here). Then see if that flower is still alive (or any plant if you don’t have a flower lying around).

        Also, take a goldfish and drop it in sea water for a week (don’t, because this will kill the fish). The Noah story just isn’t plausible.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Your grass has never been flooded for forty days and forty nights. Seeds would be crushed under the weight of the water and woudn’t grow. Run the experiment.

        Like

      • Regarding the goldfish experiment, I do not recall the waters of the deluge being of different salinity values. I understood the fresh water bodies on earth to be due to constantly being refreshed by precipitation and then released to the oceans.
        Also I understand that the salinity of the oceans are effected by runoff taking salts from erosion into the seas.
        The hydrological process is mightly complicated.
        I fear the goldfish experiment is not applicable to your arguement.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        If the entire planet is covered in water, as the story claims, then the salinity levels of various already existing bodies of water is now changed. So the fish in the ocean that was living at a salinity level of 34ppt (part per thousand) has now had 40 days of freshwater dumped on it, enough to cover the mountains. This means that the salt level would be drastically lower which would kill all of those fish and water based mammals (dolphins, whales, etc.). It’s not that much more complicated than placing a teaspoon of salt in a quart of water, and then running the tap over it for forty days.

        In which way is the goldfish experiment not applicable?

        Like

      • I agree but no one knows the salinity levels of the water previous of the flood.
        It is also good to remember that the flood consisted of water from under the earth also, which no one knows the salinity levels of. Too many unknowns to make definitive statements of what happened. or what didn’t happen.
        The goldfish experiment you speak of is using today’s conditions in an environment neither you nor I can repeat. Remember that science is proven through repeatable experiments getting the same results. Can’t do that for your theory or mine.
        Both your worldview and mine are stances of Belief.
        Faith.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I can do that with science. I can repeat experiments and get results. Your stance relies on faith, mine relies on evidence. What your stance needs is an amount of water with differing salinity levels that would remain separate to keep the various fish alive. Also trees, grass, etc. would need to be able to breathe underwater for forty says. I can absolutely conduct the goldfish experiment and it will result in a dead goldfish. I will change my position based on new evidence but I need it provided.

        On a side note are you a Flat Earther?

        Like

      • Canyons are specialized instance of high velocity concentrated flows. The flood in recession would not create a canyon such as the Palo Duro or Grand Canyon.

        Please explain why there would be no fish or plants.

        BTW, I do lean to the young earth, primarily due to eye witness testimony of a resurrected Rabbi.

        Hope you have a great day.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Salt content of the water would be too little for ocean fish/mammals and to high for fresh water creatures. I agree a flood in recession would not cause it, ice age and erosion on the other hand would.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        When did this resurrected Rabbi explain the age of the Earth? Or are you following the Usherrist interpretation of the Bible?

        Like

      • Mark 10:6

        But from the beginning of creation “God made them male and female.” Gen. 1:27
        Adam and Eve were made on the 6 day or 6x 24 hours That time line brings us to 6,000 years +…..

        Like

      • I’m not good at navigating our conversation with WordPress so if I missed something I’m not intentionally doing it

        I believe the scientific explanation of the fossil chaos of land and sea animals ( first witness)
        I believe Jesus when he gives account many years later of the flood 2nd witness

        The apostle Peter gives account 3rd witness

        Genesis gives account of the flood

        Genesis gives an account there was water above the expanse and below the expanse

        I don’t need anymore and I know there are more witnesses

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        That’s not Jesus giving the age of the universe. That’s him recounting the story of Genesis, right? You are making a leap from Genesis to the Usherrist interpretation wherein an Irish Catholic monk tried to back date the Bible. There’s nothing in Bible which states the age of the universe.

        Do you deny space travel? We have been above the expanse, there’s no water up there.

        Like

      • The water above the expanse I could imagine being used in the flood and consequently, it is gone Jesus doesn’t lie and would know since he said “ thy word is truth”

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        There’s lying and there’s not knowing something. I would impress upon you that the writers of the gospel didn’t know.

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        There is no chromosome in the Bible, there’s no depiction of one. This is the same book that claims rabbits chew their cud, I’m not going to put any stock in the scientific claims of the bible.

        Like

      • You are going to put your in a biased geneticist that claims the flood didn’t happen because man was here 15,000-800,000 years ago That isn’t science I’m not sure what you would call it. Oh yes, I do know, faith and hope

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I would not trust a geneticist to speak about global geological events that is not their field. Their claims are backed by evidence not faith or hope. Though it is odd that you would claim those two things are bad.

        Like

      • I happen to believe some knowledge acquired by humans has to some extent been revealed through the occult, by contacting demonic forces. I happen to believe that the standard described alien abduction is initiated by demonic forces

        Like

      • Scratch that last statement of mine it doesn’t make any sense about the geneticist proving man was here since Noah and his family were around after the flood

        Like

      • Chromosome was used as a figure of speech I was trying to say the Bible describes the evil nature of man to the minutest detail such as the size of a chromosome

        Like

  11. Regeneration of the spirit brings faith in Christ’s work and perfect righteousness … The believer knows his righteousness is filthy rags …works come out of the given spirit of God …Both are God’s work according the Bible …. Christ’s work and person is the only condition for salvation without any effort or contribution from the sinner… We have nothing to offer God being spiritually dead and won’t believe that and come to Christ unless we are given to Christ by the father…. through regeneration ..According to scripture only God is good and only those that are given his spirit which works in them can please God … John 6:37-44, John 6:65, Hebrews 11:6… Come unto me all that are heavy laden and burdened down I will give you rest for my yoke is easy and my burden is light ….. Why can he say that ? I think because he has paid the price for His people’s salvation Matthew 1:21 and consequently does the working inside of the believer through his spirit …The spirit brings a light load ….Father forgive them for they know not what they do” Only the Holy Spirit talks like that….the believer will never be judged for his salvation because Christ paid for it and He lived the perfect life that no one can live…. God will share his glory with no one not even the believer… Believers boast in the cross… John 3:27 says no one can receive anything except it be given… We don’t earn our salvation … It is the gift of God ….. the natural man fights that because he was given the delusion that he is like God by nature being a descendant of Adam after eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil… they experienced good before the fall and now know evil by nature after the fall
    Matthew 7:22 … they called him Lord bringing their works and He said he never knew them
    We don’t earn anything Salvation is given based on Christ and he preserves us until final glorification at the resurrection…. He said He will not lose one that the Father has given Him
    Now, that is resting from our works!!!

    Like

    • rdxdave says:

      So for you, it doesn’t matter how you live your life, you can just be a jerk but as long as you are faithful you get salvation?

      Like

      • Of course not, I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear …. After struggling with teachers over the years who ended up in my opinion being inconsistent teachers. It was hard to determine if they were teaching a Gospel of Grace or a Gospel of Grace plus works … I finally rested in Romans 9 it helped complete my understanding from scripture to see a coherent systematic understanding from scripture.
        God is in Sovereign control of everything and all comes to fruition for his glory. Revelation 4:11, Romans 11:36 Acts 17:28
        When the believer is generated from above with a new spirit ( The spirit of God or the spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit) they know from the heart the righteousness of God and the unrighteousness of man…He is a new creation… you see this world for what it is… Satan’s world and frame of reference..you recognize what Christ has done … He has sacrificed himself as your substitute rescuing you… Because the spirit dwells in you, you believe the Gospel

        Like

      • I hit the send button accidentally and sent the message before finishing… The apostle Paul said It is He that works the willing and doing in you for His good pleasure and that He will complete that work …plus as stated in John 6:37-44 Jesus will not lose anyone the Father gives to Him plus in John 6:29 Jesus says that believing the Gospel is the work of God…. God changes hearts… He promises to save His people so …that means he will produce the works in them for His good pleasure
        How else could God say my yoke is easy my burden is light….If you believe that salvation is solely the work of God conditioned on his shed blood and His imputed righteousness without any effort or contribution from the sinner… that is the miracle that comes from God through the Holy Spirit…. The natural man does not believe that because that is only spiritually discerned… The apostle Paul prayed to God in Romans 10:1-4 for God to save the Israelites that were seeking to establish their own righteousness and didn’t know the righteousness of God…. Why did the apostle pray… because he desired them to be saved. He was once one of them and he knew God was in control of when, where and who would be saved. Rest in his work and person The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        That’s not an, of course not. I know plenty of evangelicals that don’t care about the life you live just as long as you have faith. I find that to be a pretty nihilistic view of both the world and ethics. However, they have textual support because the Bible contradicts itself so they get to cherry pick their views.

        Like

      • The Bible doesn’t contradict … the interpretations do …. you call them evangelicals… to live a life of practicing sin …. is not an evangelical… it is a person that is still lost… the spirit of Christ dwelling inside does not produce what you call evangelicals … just because they are contradictory it doesn’t make the scripture contradictory…. Jesus said you are a new creation….you don’t practice … and since we don’t have glorified bodies yet …. we still have the flesh that no longer rules our life We overcome by our faith which comes from the renewed spirit…. The spirit of Christ is not nihilistic

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        The Bible absolutely contradicts itself. Repeatedly, i.e. Matthew 2 says that Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt to escape Herod. Luke 2 says they stayed in Jerusalem as though no massacred of innocents took place (which is actually true, since there is no account of any of the Herods ordering the death of infants).

        Side issue: what’s with the ellipses?

        Like

      • Matthew 2:16 Why would Herod kill a boy 2 years old since he knew the exact time he asked the wise men about the time of the birth ? Verse 16..When did he kill the boys 2 years and under, How long did it take? When did Herod die?; verse 19

        Like

      • I hit the send button by accident.. to me there isn’t enough information relating to time between events to make a conclusion of contradiction I glanced at the 2 chapters there could be time gaps … time gets elongated in Luke 2:39-40 and 41-42 without detail We just might be missing information on your issue of contradiction

        Liked by 1 person

      • rdxdave says:

        Therein lies the problem with the inerrant word of god. We either have to make assumptions about how Luke and Matthew’s books work together, which wouldn’t make sense since we would also have to assume that the census’ ridiculous requirement also meant that Joseph could leave and go to Egypt. If we’re missing the information then why wasn’t it in the book in the first place? Or is it, as Thomas Paine wrote, just the work of people writing a story? Occam’s razor leads us to the second solution.

        Like

      • 66 books over a long period of time with fulfilled prophecies. What a story? You said the Gospel account was contradictory because the account of Herod wasn’t in Luke. True, you have to work at laying the gospels side by side. Some things are repeated, some things aren’t. I went years without knowing both thieves started out mocking Jesus. It wasn’t until I put all Gospel accounts available on the thieves interaction, did I discover they both started out mocking the Son of God. Only one of the 3 Gospel accounts has that added piece of information or verse. I wouldn’t let the omitted Herod account in one of gospels change who the scripture claims the Son of God to be and what he accomplished

        Like

  12. rdxdave says:

    I’ve believed those things in the past. Then I started reading the contradictions: is it faith or works that earns a person salvation? The Bible says both are the only paths…which is a contradiction and thus meaningless. Again, you can’t quote Bible passages and think that is going to sway me, I’ve read your book and found it unconvincing.

    Like

  13. Did you ever in the past believe Jesus Christ was perfectly sinless? Did you ever believe that he was the revealed preincarnate Jehovah in the Old Testament? Did you ever believe he created all things in heaven and earth? Did you ever believe the Gospel that salvation only is based on his work shedding his blood as the perfect sacrifice and only if he imputes his righteousness to those being saved will someone be given justifiable faith in that gospel. Did you ever believe that salvation is only based of his work without any effort or contribution from the sinner… I would be interested in what you might think is a contradiction but Jesus did say faith is a gift and the natural man doesn’t accept the things of the spirit because he thinks they are foolishness… and unable because they are spiritually discerned and he needs to be given a new spirit in order to believe.. I did struggle for many years trusting in teachers trying to get through the false because there are so many false doctrines and religions which correlates with Jesus’ statement about wide is the path that leads to destruction and many go in that wide path…. Most professing christians can’t accept that God is totally sovereign and in control of all things including evil…. and predestined all things before he created all things… Romans 9 I decided was the dividing line between main stream Christianity and the truth…. I have never read any where about a righteous individual other than Jesus Christ and in my estimation God would be totally righteous…. I have never read about or heard about anyone that fits Godly perfection other than Jesus Christ there is no hope in anyone else or any where else.

    Like

  14. The regeneration of the spirit. A result of the spiritual death that occurred in the Garden of Eden keeps you from believing the Gospel
    1 Corinthians 2:14 only through God giving you a new spirit and a new heart will you believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ… God became flesh John 1:14…. The substitute for his people …. he provided the payment and suffering for His people’s sins against God and lived the perfect life in thought word and deed that His can’t live …. making God a just God and savior ….. He that believes this has passed from spiritual death to life Jesus said I AM The Way The Truth and The Life …. no time in history has God became flesh…He is the only begotten Son of God who created all things in heaven and earth who causes all things for his glory

    Like

    • rdxdave says:

      I used to be a Christian, a solid believer too, was seriously considering becoming a minister of some stripe. So it’s not lack of exposure nor is it one of the tales in the book that prevents me from believing it. What keeps me from believing in it, is that I’ve read it. It is full of misinformation and self-contradiction that you could not sell a person on the book without indoctrinating them first.

      Like

  15. I really don’t understand… because humans you say humans are “ an infinitesimal part of the universe”, you are an atheist … ? There is a lot of information in the scripture about the seen and unseen beings and you can see the material and biological part of the universe around you but it appears you want to ignore it and just say we are an infinitesimal part of the universe … Romans chapter 1 says you know but you suppress the truth in unrighteous ness… it seems the scripture gives us more to go on then we are just “ an infinitesimal part of the universe”

    Like

    • rdxdave says:

      Yes, I am an atheist. I do not understand why you doubt that.

      “infinitesimal” means really small. So yes, I can see the great expanse of the universe in telescopes and understand that us humans are a very small part of it whose existence goes mostly unnoticed by the universe.

      Citing Romans isn’t going to be effective because I don’t put any truth in the Bible. Yes it does mention many unseen things, but you would have to believe in supernatural beings for any of that to make sense, which, as an atheist I don’t believe in any of that.

      Like

      • You are shipping a lot of worth (worship) on being an atheist which is putting a lot of worth ship (worship) on what you think or self…. you know you sin I know I sin but The Bible is descriptive enough about Jesus Christ never sinning because he nature that cannot sin and the Bible says he was the eternal God became flesh but if you don’t believe it , the Bible articulates why… Scripture answers all we need to know but I do understand nothing I can say will change that

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I absolutely do not understand the first half of the first sentence. I’m going to assume you are having this conversation honestly and not trying to be some kind of troll, I hope you have the same assumption.

        I do not understand why you bring up the concept of “sin” as we were not discussing that. Does the Bible say Jesus never sinned? I don’t remember that, I do remember that “Mary” was alleged to never sin (and in the Catholic tradition, never died either).

        The Bible does not articulate why I don’t believe it. Even if it did, it wouldn’t matter to me, because I don’t put any faith or worth in the Bible because I’m an atheist. You would have to start with arguing that the Bible was a true story, and even highly motivated biblical archaeologists have a difficult time establishing that the stories are true (those are from both the Christian and Jewish traditions). Then you’d have to argue that the spiritual stuff in the Bible is accurate. That’s the bar for acceptance.

        Like

      • No I’m trying to biblical and my frame of reference is the Bible is true..The Bible says Jesus was sinless and the Bible no where says Mary was sinless That is a catholic doctrine. If you have ever lied then I think most people would consider that a sin. There isn’t one person that hasn’t lied confirming that spiritual death happened in the Garden of Eden when God said if you eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil “ Dying you shall die” spiritual death came in simple terms all became liars and the process eventually ends in physical death. I have heard that archaeologists have proven the biblical information …. the apostles don’t go off alone into separate areas claiming the Gospel the death and resurrection if it was a lie …. no one around to know they gave in and denounced it if it was a lie to save their life….. all they would of had to do is to say it is a lie to save their life because the other apostles weren’t around ….

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        Just because people lie, doesn’t confirm the story. That’s an example of post hoc reasoning. And archaeologists have not confirmed the truth of the Bible. No science establishes the truth of the flood for instance.

        Like

      • You never asked yourself why everyone has lied? How would you explain it ? The Bible explains it
        The only explanation for fossils normally dwelling in water and land and in different environments stuck in high lands in concentrated levels is the flood

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        There are plenty of reasons that people lie, I don’t need the Bible to tell me that people are afraid of the consequences of the truth.

        No that is not the only reason: continental drift, the ice age, land erosions etc. All explain the locations of fossils. The “flood story” is nothing more than a fable adapted from the earlier Epic of Gilgamesh.

        Like

      • I compare everything to Jesus Christ being God became flesh (according to the books of the Bible spanning many years )doesn’t lie ..According to the Bible, man is spiritually dead which explains falling short ( short) (lying and many other sick characteristics listed in the book of Romans) of the glory of God. To me the flood is more of a cataclysmic explanation for the chaotic mix of out of place fossils high in the mountains. I haven’t seen a more plausible place to look for a perfectly righteous God and an explanation for a sick natured man than the Bible.

        Like

      • Yes the Bible does say your dead spirit, a result from the garden of Eden, needs to be changed. God says in John 3:3-8 you need to be generated from above in order to see and enter into the kingdom of God Ezekiel 36:26 … 2 Corinthians 4:6, John 1:12-13, John 3:27

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I’m an atheist, the book isn’t going to convince me anymore than the Upanashads would convince you of the truth of the Hindu religion.

        Like

  16. rdxdave says:

    What would the “god of atheism” be? I’m an atheist, by definition there is no god that I believe exists.

    Like

      • rdxdave says:

        I wouldn’t use the term “god of atheism” that implies there is something being worshipped or held in pious reverence. Those things do not exist in our worldview (which, I can’t speak for all atheists as there is not a shared dogma with us).

        Like

      • Since in your worldview of “atheism”you don’t worship a god outside of you, then you must be worshipping yourself since your frame of reference is within yourself … as though it is absolute truth to you. You have made yourself supreme

        Like

      • rdxdave says:

        No, there is no worshipping. There is nothing to worship. The rest of your comment is completely alien to me.

        Like

    • The God of atheism is self worship! The delusion offered by the Serpent in the Garden of Eden “you will be like God” …the delusion was solidified in natural ‘man’s fallen nature …. he believes he is the center of the universe

      Like

      • rdxdave says:

        No this is not correct. Generally, atheists understand that human beings make up such an infinitesimal portion of an indifferent universe. The garden of eden story plays no part in it.

        Like

      • For God’s wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, the ones holding back the truth in unrighteousness,
        19 ¶ because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God re- vealed it to them.
        20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, be- ing understood by the things made, both His eternal power and divinity, for them to be without excuse.
        21 Because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful. But they became vain in their reasonings, and their undiscerning heart was darkened.
        22 Professing to be wise ones, they be- came foolish
        23 and changed the glory of the incor- ruptible God into a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four- footed animals, and creeping things.
        24 Therefore, God gave them over to im- purity in the lusts of their hearts, their bod- ies to be dishonored among themselves,
        25 who exchanged the truth of God into the lie, and worshiped and served the cre- ated thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

        Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.