Discussions with an Atheist – Part 12

atheist

A long time ago, I was browsing my Facebook page when I came across a post that ridiculed Kirk Cameron’s efforts to sell an “Atheist” Bible.
A friend (who it turns out to be an atheist) seemed to think that Kirk was “uninformed”
Well I thought, lets discuss this issue, and what follows is a record of our discussion.
I really looked forward to his responses and enjoyed considering and responding to his concerns.
Some of my friends comments are a bit lengthy, and as I read them I found echoes of myself, seeking to defend a position simply by supplying a massive quantity of words, knowing inside that he quality of the argument was weak.
If you are a believer in the Lord Jesus, you may find encouragement, and some understanding of an atheist’s worldview.
If you are an atheist, I would encourage you to read and consider my responses.  I seek to understand your position, and if you see a fallacy in my thinking, please comment.  I only ask that you focus your position to one point at a time, in order that I may respond (if I can) without unnecessary confusion.
My comments and responses are in red.

Again for the not recording immediately you even did this experiment in boy scouts did you not? did the story in your case get skewed? … so the likeliness of that is highly unlikely still

Please reread my post earlier, where I tried to explain that it is NOT a multiplicity of oral story tellings prior to the writing of the gospels, but that eye-witnesses recorded the life and death of Jesus.

Probability is not a factor in this. Either have the intellectual integrity to state that these men (the apostles) were bold faced liars who duped entire nations (eventually), and in that lie, suffered poverty, persecution, distress and finally martyrdom (‘cept for John), or consider their record as having validity. These men were eye witnesses of the resurrection!

But then take into account the error of the “creation” …

Creationism is not the issue. You weren’t there – I wasn’t there. All those testing methods sound impressive. Not an issue concerning the Biblical record of Jesus’s life and death!

Jones town massacre….hmmm one person making many believe his story…sounds like religion or any other endeavor with false stories and no hard evidence doesn’t it? Or any other religion that is in practice or ever was practiced…

Religion is a trap! I fell into it, and I fear you may fall into it. I am NOT defending religion! Religion, in my humble opinion, has enslaved as many folk as any “vice” in this world.

I am NOT defending religion!

It is the historical Jesus, and Him only, that I want to focus on. He made claims, that if they are not true, should be considered the worst of lies. If the resurrection is true, and is, as the New Testament states, and is God’s “validation” of His claims, His claims need to be considered .

You have to be honest with facts, Friend. Propaganda, and smear tactics are not worthy of a fella who can think like you.


Hey thanks for dropping by and reading my post, especially if you are an atheist friend.  I hope to hear from you and would appreciate a comment to begin a discussion.

Have a great day.


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Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.

60 thoughts on “Discussions with an Atheist – Part 12

  1. Doesn’t scripture say we are being conformed into the image of Christ … which is confined by his working of the willing and the doing… and that he will complete it … when glorified at the resurrection… we won’t be able to sin any longer at all … wouldn’t eternal life also mean we won’t experience the 2nd death of those that are not written in the book of life

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  2. My understanding is regeneration brings faith in the truth …. a new creation brings a continual faith and dependence on God that never goes away… a change of mind a change of life God does that he begins it holds it and finishes it …. John 6:37-44

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      1. I love you question and I love discussing that question from scripture.
        Please give me your idea of what it means to force. How would God Force us to continue to believe? How do we come to believe the Gospel in the first place and how do we continue to believe if he doesn’t cause us to continue to believe?

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  3. I’m curious what you actually believed before… because Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and follow me and never follow a stranger (atheism)…. once you hear and believe the actual truth you can never say I don’t believe … impossible according to Jesus …. He says whoever the Father gives to Him will not be lost God doesn’t fail at saving His people …you couldn’t have believed the Gospel before… Jesus said He that believes into me has eternal life… eternal life doesn’t leave once inside

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    1. Please direct me to where it says eternal life is based on one act of faith?
      Also, have you considered eternal life may be based on an ongoing relationship with Jesus and not simply one act of faith.
      Or that eternal life is a type of life, not necessarily defining time of duration but quality of life?
      Just some things rattling around in my head.

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      1. Well, I have thought atheism was a false religion…. I tried to get that point across to RxDave … I was taught by a pastor many years ago that worship was a contraction of Worth and Ship …. in other words what worship would be is what you ship worth or value to …. Christians worship The Gospel of Jesus Christ and worship Him as absolute truth
        An atheist in my judgement is shipping value or worth in what he views as absolute truth “ there is no God” The belief comes from within him and He values and trusts that as absolute truth …. that is worshipping or valuing ultimately what is coming out of his heart. With the mouth he speaks what comes out of the heart…. Christians confess and believe what comes out of the mouth that which comes out of his heart which according to the Bible has been regenerated or generated from above….. The atheist speaks but the Christian doesn’t follow the stranger and consequently does not hear his voice but hears Jesus Christ’s voice
        Consequently, the Christian doesn’t believe the false religion of atheism

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      1. I will try a 3rd time to answer and successfully post .. maybe posting the scriptures made it too long I will just list the scriptures.

        Based on John 6:37-44 and Luke 22:21, I would have to believe Judas was not given to Jesus by The Father
        John 6 says Jesus will give eternal life to the ones the Father gives to Him and He will not lose one of them the Father gives but will raise them up in the last day
        In Luke 22:21… it appears Judas was lost therefore not given. Just because he was a disciple doesn’t mean he was one of God’s elect given to Jesus

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  4. In John 17:17… Jesus said Thy Word is Truth…. He said in John 14:6
    I AM The Way The Truth The Life… He said to the Pharisees or Jews
    In John 5:39
    You searched the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they are they that testify of Me (Truth).
    In 2 Timothy 3:16 it says
    All scripture God breathed and profitable for doctrine….. To say the Bible is just a story or a fable or a lie is to agree with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden who called God’s Word a lie and God a liar by saying“ Dying you shall NOT die” (KJ3) God knows in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you shall be like God knowing good and evil …Jesus said in John 10
    My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me ..they will never follow a stranger ( false teacher, false prophet, false gospel)
    Once you are generated from above John 3:3-8 and know The True God and Jesus Christ whom He sent John 17:3 and that Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9 conditioned solely on the work of Christ and His imputed righteousness and God’s work alone from regeneration to final glorification… Philippians 1:6 then
    John 5:24
    24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believing the One having sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    Once you believe the truth that salvation is based on Christ’s atoning blood and His imputed righteousness and salvation is all God’s work from regeneration to final glorification based on Christ’s work alone without any effort or contribution from the sinner… then you believe the Gospel, (the good news) of Christ and have passed from death to Life never to return to unbelief We can do nothing except it be given from above
    John 3:27…. Rest in the work of Christ and trust that he will complete the good work in you that he has began…. John 6:37-44…. He will lose none of those the Father has given Him … He gives them eternal life

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    1. None of this matters, I don’t accept the Bible as true so the words from it aren’t going to be convincing (except maybe Ecclesiastes but that’s because it is so heavily influenced by arguments from Greek philosophy–especially the Stoic and Epicurean schools).

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  5. Please let me reiterate a point about the disciples.. it doesn’t appear my previous note about the disciples went through the system … I will try to simplify… before the resurrection most of the disciples had their own form of weakness; but after the resurrection they became very bold strong and confident… each went off alone to proclaim the Gospel ….. no one gets greatly upset with people that believe in God or do not believe in God as long as you aren’t exclusive … but the natural man becomes furious when you claim Jesus Christ is the only way and narrow path to God based on solely on His Work and perfect righteousness…The Way The truth The Life ….no one comes to the Father but through Him…. The natural man hates that Sovereign God …. consequently the disciples were killed because of that claim…. being alone in different areas away from the other disciples they could have very easily capitulated; if it was a lie because no one is generally willing to die for a lie if they are away from those that could hold them accountable; the other disciples.

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    1. Yeah…people are willing to die for a lie, that’s pretty obvious in history, as long as the lie gets them something they can even know that it is a lie.

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      1. What did the disciples receive ? The point was they didn’t have to die. They only had to give in to the worldview since no other disciple was around to hold them accountable for not holding to the lie. Perfectly logical to me

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  6. Again, I don’t accept the account of Jesus because I don’t believe the Bible is true. That being said, Jesus never mentioned the flood.

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    1. Matthew 24:35-38
      The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away, not ever!
      36 But about that day and that hour, no one has known, neither the angels of Heaven, except My Father only.
      37 But as the days of Noah, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
      38 For as they were in the days before the flood: eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah went into the ark

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      1. So, if Jesus mentioned the flood then that would confirm the flood and if that doesn’t confirm the flood then you agree with the Serpent (Satan) that God is a liar since Jesus is The Word was God became flesh who claimed to be The Truth

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  7. Regeneration of the spirit brings faith in Christ’s work and perfect righteousness … The believer knows his righteousness is filthy rags …works come out of the given spirit of God …Both are God’s work according the Bible …. Christ’s work and person is the only condition for salvation without any effort or contribution from the sinner… We have nothing to offer God being spiritually dead and won’t believe that and come to Christ unless we are given to Christ by the father…. through regeneration ..According to scripture only God is good and only those that are given his spirit which works in them can please God … John 6:37-44, John 6:65, Hebrews 11:6… Come unto me all that are heavy laden and burdened down I will give you rest for my yoke is easy and my burden is light ….. Why can he say that ? I think because he has paid the price for His people’s salvation Matthew 1:21 and consequently does the working inside of the believer through his spirit …The spirit brings a light load ….Father forgive them for they know not what they do” Only the Holy Spirit talks like that….the believer will never be judged for his salvation because Christ paid for it and He lived the perfect life that no one can live…. God will share his glory with no one not even the believer… Believers boast in the cross… John 3:27 says no one can receive anything except it be given… We don’t earn our salvation … It is the gift of God ….. the natural man fights that because he was given the delusion that he is like God by nature being a descendant of Adam after eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil… they experienced good before the fall and now know evil by nature after the fall
    Matthew 7:22 … they called him Lord bringing their works and He said he never knew them
    We don’t earn anything Salvation is given based on Christ and he preserves us until final glorification at the resurrection…. He said He will not lose one that the Father has given Him
    Now, that is resting from our works!!!

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    1. So for you, it doesn’t matter how you live your life, you can just be a jerk but as long as you are faithful you get salvation?

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      1. Of course not, I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear …. After struggling with teachers over the years who ended up in my opinion being inconsistent teachers. It was hard to determine if they were teaching a Gospel of Grace or a Gospel of Grace plus works … I finally rested in Romans 9 it helped complete my understanding from scripture to see a coherent systematic understanding from scripture.
        God is in Sovereign control of everything and all comes to fruition for his glory. Revelation 4:11, Romans 11:36 Acts 17:28
        When the believer is generated from above with a new spirit ( The spirit of God or the spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit) they know from the heart the righteousness of God and the unrighteousness of man…He is a new creation… you see this world for what it is… Satan’s world and frame of reference..you recognize what Christ has done … He has sacrificed himself as your substitute rescuing you… Because the spirit dwells in you, you believe the Gospel

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      2. I hit the send button accidentally and sent the message before finishing… The apostle Paul said It is He that works the willing and doing in you for His good pleasure and that He will complete that work …plus as stated in John 6:37-44 Jesus will not lose anyone the Father gives to Him plus in John 6:29 Jesus says that believing the Gospel is the work of God…. God changes hearts… He promises to save His people so …that means he will produce the works in them for His good pleasure
        How else could God say my yoke is easy my burden is light….If you believe that salvation is solely the work of God conditioned on his shed blood and His imputed righteousness without any effort or contribution from the sinner… that is the miracle that comes from God through the Holy Spirit…. The natural man does not believe that because that is only spiritually discerned… The apostle Paul prayed to God in Romans 10:1-4 for God to save the Israelites that were seeking to establish their own righteousness and didn’t know the righteousness of God…. Why did the apostle pray… because he desired them to be saved. He was once one of them and he knew God was in control of when, where and who would be saved. Rest in his work and person The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation

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      3. That’s not an, of course not. I know plenty of evangelicals that don’t care about the life you live just as long as you have faith. I find that to be a pretty nihilistic view of both the world and ethics. However, they have textual support because the Bible contradicts itself so they get to cherry pick their views.

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      4. The Bible doesn’t contradict … the interpretations do …. you call them evangelicals… to live a life of practicing sin …. is not an evangelical… it is a person that is still lost… the spirit of Christ dwelling inside does not produce what you call evangelicals … just because they are contradictory it doesn’t make the scripture contradictory…. Jesus said you are a new creation….you don’t practice … and since we don’t have glorified bodies yet …. we still have the flesh that no longer rules our life We overcome by our faith which comes from the renewed spirit…. The spirit of Christ is not nihilistic

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  8. I’ve believed those things in the past. Then I started reading the contradictions: is it faith or works that earns a person salvation? The Bible says both are the only paths…which is a contradiction and thus meaningless. Again, you can’t quote Bible passages and think that is going to sway me, I’ve read your book and found it unconvincing.

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  9. Did you ever in the past believe Jesus Christ was perfectly sinless? Did you ever believe that he was the revealed preincarnate Jehovah in the Old Testament? Did you ever believe he created all things in heaven and earth? Did you ever believe the Gospel that salvation only is based on his work shedding his blood as the perfect sacrifice and only if he imputes his righteousness to those being saved will someone be given justifiable faith in that gospel. Did you ever believe that salvation is only based of his work without any effort or contribution from the sinner… I would be interested in what you might think is a contradiction but Jesus did say faith is a gift and the natural man doesn’t accept the things of the spirit because he thinks they are foolishness… and unable because they are spiritually discerned and he needs to be given a new spirit in order to believe.. I did struggle for many years trusting in teachers trying to get through the false because there are so many false doctrines and religions which correlates with Jesus’ statement about wide is the path that leads to destruction and many go in that wide path…. Most professing christians can’t accept that God is totally sovereign and in control of all things including evil…. and predestined all things before he created all things… Romans 9 I decided was the dividing line between main stream Christianity and the truth…. I have never read any where about a righteous individual other than Jesus Christ and in my estimation God would be totally righteous…. I have never read about or heard about anyone that fits Godly perfection other than Jesus Christ there is no hope in anyone else or any where else.

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  10. The regeneration of the spirit. A result of the spiritual death that occurred in the Garden of Eden keeps you from believing the Gospel
    1 Corinthians 2:14 only through God giving you a new spirit and a new heart will you believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ… God became flesh John 1:14…. The substitute for his people …. he provided the payment and suffering for His people’s sins against God and lived the perfect life in thought word and deed that His can’t live …. making God a just God and savior ….. He that believes this has passed from spiritual death to life Jesus said I AM The Way The Truth and The Life …. no time in history has God became flesh…He is the only begotten Son of God who created all things in heaven and earth who causes all things for his glory

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    1. I used to be a Christian, a solid believer too, was seriously considering becoming a minister of some stripe. So it’s not lack of exposure nor is it one of the tales in the book that prevents me from believing it. What keeps me from believing in it, is that I’ve read it. It is full of misinformation and self-contradiction that you could not sell a person on the book without indoctrinating them first.

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  11. I really don’t understand… because humans you say humans are “ an infinitesimal part of the universe”, you are an atheist … ? There is a lot of information in the scripture about the seen and unseen beings and you can see the material and biological part of the universe around you but it appears you want to ignore it and just say we are an infinitesimal part of the universe … Romans chapter 1 says you know but you suppress the truth in unrighteous ness… it seems the scripture gives us more to go on then we are just “ an infinitesimal part of the universe”

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    1. Yes, I am an atheist. I do not understand why you doubt that.

      “infinitesimal” means really small. So yes, I can see the great expanse of the universe in telescopes and understand that us humans are a very small part of it whose existence goes mostly unnoticed by the universe.

      Citing Romans isn’t going to be effective because I don’t put any truth in the Bible. Yes it does mention many unseen things, but you would have to believe in supernatural beings for any of that to make sense, which, as an atheist I don’t believe in any of that.

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      1. You are shipping a lot of worth (worship) on being an atheist which is putting a lot of worth ship (worship) on what you think or self…. you know you sin I know I sin but The Bible is descriptive enough about Jesus Christ never sinning because he nature that cannot sin and the Bible says he was the eternal God became flesh but if you don’t believe it , the Bible articulates why… Scripture answers all we need to know but I do understand nothing I can say will change that

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      2. I absolutely do not understand the first half of the first sentence. I’m going to assume you are having this conversation honestly and not trying to be some kind of troll, I hope you have the same assumption.

        I do not understand why you bring up the concept of “sin” as we were not discussing that. Does the Bible say Jesus never sinned? I don’t remember that, I do remember that “Mary” was alleged to never sin (and in the Catholic tradition, never died either).

        The Bible does not articulate why I don’t believe it. Even if it did, it wouldn’t matter to me, because I don’t put any faith or worth in the Bible because I’m an atheist. You would have to start with arguing that the Bible was a true story, and even highly motivated biblical archaeologists have a difficult time establishing that the stories are true (those are from both the Christian and Jewish traditions). Then you’d have to argue that the spiritual stuff in the Bible is accurate. That’s the bar for acceptance.

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      3. No I’m trying to biblical and my frame of reference is the Bible is true..The Bible says Jesus was sinless and the Bible no where says Mary was sinless That is a catholic doctrine. If you have ever lied then I think most people would consider that a sin. There isn’t one person that hasn’t lied confirming that spiritual death happened in the Garden of Eden when God said if you eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil “ Dying you shall die” spiritual death came in simple terms all became liars and the process eventually ends in physical death. I have heard that archaeologists have proven the biblical information …. the apostles don’t go off alone into separate areas claiming the Gospel the death and resurrection if it was a lie …. no one around to know they gave in and denounced it if it was a lie to save their life….. all they would of had to do is to say it is a lie to save their life because the other apostles weren’t around ….

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      4. Just because people lie, doesn’t confirm the story. That’s an example of post hoc reasoning. And archaeologists have not confirmed the truth of the Bible. No science establishes the truth of the flood for instance.

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      5. You never asked yourself why everyone has lied? How would you explain it ? The Bible explains it
        The only explanation for fossils normally dwelling in water and land and in different environments stuck in high lands in concentrated levels is the flood

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      6. There are plenty of reasons that people lie, I don’t need the Bible to tell me that people are afraid of the consequences of the truth.

        No that is not the only reason: continental drift, the ice age, land erosions etc. All explain the locations of fossils. The “flood story” is nothing more than a fable adapted from the earlier Epic of Gilgamesh.

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      7. I compare everything to Jesus Christ being God became flesh (according to the books of the Bible spanning many years )doesn’t lie ..According to the Bible, man is spiritually dead which explains falling short ( short) (lying and many other sick characteristics listed in the book of Romans) of the glory of God. To me the flood is more of a cataclysmic explanation for the chaotic mix of out of place fossils high in the mountains. I haven’t seen a more plausible place to look for a perfectly righteous God and an explanation for a sick natured man than the Bible.

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      8. Yes the Bible does say your dead spirit, a result from the garden of Eden, needs to be changed. God says in John 3:3-8 you need to be generated from above in order to see and enter into the kingdom of God Ezekiel 36:26 … 2 Corinthians 4:6, John 1:12-13, John 3:27

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      9. I’m an atheist, the book isn’t going to convince me anymore than the Upanashads would convince you of the truth of the Hindu religion.

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  12. What would the “god of atheism” be? I’m an atheist, by definition there is no god that I believe exists.

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      1. I wouldn’t use the term “god of atheism” that implies there is something being worshipped or held in pious reverence. Those things do not exist in our worldview (which, I can’t speak for all atheists as there is not a shared dogma with us).

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      2. Since in your worldview of “atheism”you don’t worship a god outside of you, then you must be worshipping yourself since your frame of reference is within yourself … as though it is absolute truth to you. You have made yourself supreme

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      3. No, there is no worshipping. There is nothing to worship. The rest of your comment is completely alien to me.

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    1. The God of atheism is self worship! The delusion offered by the Serpent in the Garden of Eden “you will be like God” …the delusion was solidified in natural ‘man’s fallen nature …. he believes he is the center of the universe

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      1. No this is not correct. Generally, atheists understand that human beings make up such an infinitesimal portion of an indifferent universe. The garden of eden story plays no part in it.

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      2. For God’s wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, the ones holding back the truth in unrighteousness,
        19 ¶ because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God re- vealed it to them.
        20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, be- ing understood by the things made, both His eternal power and divinity, for them to be without excuse.
        21 Because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful. But they became vain in their reasonings, and their undiscerning heart was darkened.
        22 Professing to be wise ones, they be- came foolish
        23 and changed the glory of the incor- ruptible God into a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four- footed animals, and creeping things.
        24 Therefore, God gave them over to im- purity in the lusts of their hearts, their bod- ies to be dishonored among themselves,
        25 who exchanged the truth of God into the lie, and worshiped and served the cre- ated thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

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    1. Another thought that came to my mind; underneath the skin of atheist’s thinking, could their thinking be just another form of natural man’s desire to worship self? Which takes us back to the serpent “ “you will be like God”, knowing

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