Hell · Eternal Torment

ECT & Passage 2 – 1 John 3:8

As many of my readers may know, I have been studying the teaching of hell for a few years. I recently picked up a book called Spiritual Terrorism, written by Boyd C Purcell, and as I ventured through the pages, I came across a listing of ten reasons the author considers Eternal Conscience Torment (ECT) as impossible.

Each of the ten reasons are based on a particular passage of Scripture that I propose we consider in relation to this topic. Food for thought for those willing to consider.

Let’s continue with 1 John 3:8.

1 John 3:8

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

The apostle John gives us the reason the Son of God appeared. He came to destroy the works of the devil.

At first blush, the verse seems easy to understand, yet upon taking my time to read it slowly, the verse has a number of questions I need to consider. Let’s start with defining what it means to destroy, but not from our English modern standpoint, but hopefully from the apostle John’s cultural and religious standpoint.

Destroy

What does “destroy” mean? A web based dictionary provides the following English definition.

  1. To break apart the structure of, render physically unusable, or cause to cease to exist as a distinguishable physical entity:
  2. To put an end to; eliminate.
  3. To render useless or ruin.

The Greek word λύω, translated as destroy in our verse above, is translated “destroy” one other time in the New Testament. We find this verse in John 2:19.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Various other translations for this same Greek word include loose (27x), break (5x), unloose (3x), dissolve (2x), put off (1x), melt (1x), break up (1x), break down (1x).

As you can see, this Greek word is understood in many ways. It is interesting that John uses this Greek word λύω in his gospel six times. I suggest a quick a review of these verses may provide some guidance.

John 1:27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.”

John the Baptist is speaking and referring to his standing before the Messiah. The term is not speaking of a cessation of existence, but of the relative importance of John in relation to the Master. He is not worthy to perform the lowliest of tasks for the Son. This verse speaks of “loosing” or “unbinding” the strap of the Lord’s sandal, a lowly task.

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Jesus uses this word to speak of His death. Prior to the resurrection, some may have argued the use of this word could mean a cessation of life, or even of existence. Now that He has risen, and He used it knowing of His return, it may be instructive to reconsider this implication.

Nevertheless, at the time of His using it, the communication was of destruction, of breaking apart, to render useless. Note that when something is destroyed, the order has been removed, but not the material. When the temple was destroyed, the order, symmetry, elevation, floorplan, structure and stature of the great temple was destroyed, or in other words, put out of order, becoming useless. But the temple, as the material it being composed of, did not cease to exist. It simply lost it’s status and usefulness of being an ordered, designed and beautiful building.

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Breaking the sabbath. This term has much baggage with it. First off, to think of the Messiah “breaking” the Sabbath is amazing. But I can’t get distracted about this topic. (If interested, check out my 17 part series on Jesus on the Sabbath)

Back to the point, it seems the concept of loosing, or unbinding comes to the forefront in this verse. Jesus referred to a burden the Pharisees placed on the regular joe in Israel (Matthew 23:4). One of these burdens may have been a strict observance of the Sabbath. It seems Jesus went out of His way to perform a healing on the Sabbath. Many, if not all of His healings could have been performed on the following day without any difference in the result, except for the discussion (argument) this action provoked. This is the background for this verse, and the Pharisees consider Jesus as a Sabbath breaker, who who does not keep the Sabbath.

In my thinking, the Pharisees saw Him as lax in relation to the rules that they enforced. He was unloosing the standard of the Sabbath.

John 7:23 If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man’s whole body well?

This word is translated as broken/break again in relation to the Sabbath. Interesting!

Here the Lord is using the Pharisees understanding of the Sabbath against them, comparing circumcision (a cutting away of a portion of a man’s body) with a healing (of an entire man’s body). If the breaking (or unloosing) of Sabbath rules is acceptable for the cutting of foreskin (commanded by God), would not the same standard be acceptable for any good work toward your neighbor, since Leviticus 19:18 is also is a command of God?

Again, this term does not define a cessation of existence, but simply an unloosing or unbinding of a rule, law or principle.

John 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came–and Scripture cannot be broken

Jesus is again using the the Word of God to argue the Pharisees understanding of God and of His own status. The term “broken” surely can not mean cessation in this context, for the Scripture is everlasting, forever in the heavens. Jesus is, in my opinion, teaching the Scriptures as being one cohesive unity, speaking one message, and with one purpose.

Our challenge in life is to find that single message, that single purpose. Have you found yours?

John 11:44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”

The resuscitation of Lazarus. Here the term is clearly used referring to loosing Lazarus from his clothing of death, to release him from the bondage of his tomb garments.

In summary, it appears the term is related to unloosing, or unbinding rather than our conventional understanding of destroying, or of annihilation, or of cessation of existence. And this seems to make sense, since it seems obvious the devil’s work, is still active in this ol’ world.

We need to consider that through the Life of the Son, the devil’s works have been loosed from those of us who follow Him. We are no longer under bondage, unless we choose to be!

The Works of the Devil

The works of the devil, in my understanding fall under three general headings.

Deceit

When we think of the devil, deceit of character is number one on the hit parade. He is a liar. This is the fountainhead of his character, and the source of the devil’s work.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Distraction

If Satan can distract us from the Kingdom of God, he has won.

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

If Satan can distract us toward ourselves, that is to consider ourselves to be the focus of our desires, he has won.

2 Timothy 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,

When was the first time you realized you are not fighting against humans in this struggle we are in. Satan definitely wants us to see our fellow travelers on this round ball as the enemy. This distraction keeps us from seeing the truth as described in Eph 6

Ephesians 6:12 ESV – For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against…..

This distraction is the the very heartbeat of our tendency to justify murder, hatred and tribalism during our lives.

How many times can you recall the Scripture’s telling us to focus on God, on the Messiah and on the Kingdom. Consider a smattering of verses…

Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.

Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus…

Discouragement

If satan can’t get you with deceit (and who is without some error in their life) and distractions are not effective (I find it hard to believe that distraction isn’t effective), one of satan’s most effective hammers is that of discouragement.

How many of us have sought the Lord’s will, fought the many distractions, focusing on Him, and yet due to discouragement, simply quit? Personally, I admit to being somewhat of a pessimist, and am very susceptible to discouragement. It is a very effective tool of satan to keep me from the Lord.

David also was discouraged, greatly distressed, and yet he “strengthened (encouraged) himself in the Lord.” A great passage for folks to consider as they enter times of darkness, discouragement and distress is found in 1 Samuel.

Satan uses discouragement to blur our hope, and to dull our faith in the Great King.

1 Samuel 30:6 And David was greatly distressed, for the people spoke of stoning him, because all the people were bitter in soul, each for his sons and daughters. But David strengthened himself in the LORD his God.

Although I have enjoyed our short study, the original intent of this post was to consider 1 John 3:8 in relation to eternal conscious torment and how it relates to that topic. To be honest, I don’t see how it supports Mr. Purcell’s claim of the passage supporting a universal reconciliation teaching.

In summary, I understand the devil seeks to influence our lives through his works of deceit distraction and discouragement. If our understanding of destroy above is accurate, I may see the works of the devil as being active, influential and at times seemingly overpowering. But don’t forget, the Master has unbound us, loosened us from having to be obedient to evil influence of the enemy. Jesus has unloosed us from the deceit, distractions and discouragement of the devil. We may fall into any (or all) of these traps at times, but our God is a saving God and always will seek us out.

In relation to our original question for this series, I see this passage as describing our current existence in following the Lord, and not a passage that supports an understanding of universal salvation.

What thinkest thou? Do you see this passage differently? I would love to hear of your thoughts, and to consider the Bible with you


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Eternal Torment · Hell

ECT & Passage 1 – Matthew 5:43-44, 48

As many of my readers may know, I have been studying the teaching of hell for a few years. I recently picked up a book called Spiritual Terrorism, written by Boyd C Purcell, and as I ventured through the pages, I came across a listing of ten reasons the author considers Eternal Conscience Torment (ECT) as impossible.

Each of the ten reasons are based on a particular passage of Scripture that I propose we consider in relation to this topic. Food for thought for those willing to consider.

Let’s begin with Matthew 5

Matthew 5:43-44, 48

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Unchanging Character of the Father

Although I referred to the book “Spiritual Terrorism” above, I would like to supplement this post with an additional author from two centuries ago. His name is George McDonald, an ol’ Scottish preacher who lived in the 1800’s His writings are challenging and have influenced many believers, such as Lewis Carrol and (through his writings) C.S. Lewis. He is commonly considered a universalist, though he never called himself such.

A short discussion I recently found by Mr. McDonald seems very pertinent to our topic.

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.” “Love your enemies, and ye shall be the children of the highest.” It is the divine glory to forgive.


Yet a time will come when the Unchangeable will cease to forgive; when it will no more belong to his perfection to love his enemies; when he will look calmly, and have his children look calmly too, upon the ascending smoke of the everlasting torments of our strong brothers, our beautiful sisters! Nay, alas! the brothers are weak now; the sisters are ugly now!

His second paragraph is challenging. How can the One who “changes not” change from being a merciful and forgiving God we all have come to know, to One who seeks retribution, suffering for the sake of justice, and misery upon His “enemies”?

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Before my readers bring up the topic of the necessity of judgement, let me admit and confess that I believe the Scriptures on the teaching of the wages of sin being death. I do not seek to remove hell from the Word of God, although my understanding of this topic is continually being challenged.

I confess that even as a believer, I continue to offer up to our Master sadness and heartache with my decisions and actions that do not reflect His character. Hell is a reality and judgement day is approaching for each of us. Personally, I cannot understand the grace and mercy He has provided me so far, but He has been faithful, so faithful to me. To my readers, if you too have experienced the mercy of God in your life, leave a comment below, describing His mercy in your life. It may be the encouragement some soul needs to hear!

Note that He commands believers to be like Him, to forgive, to bless, to love, to pray for those who are our enemies. We are to live this way in order that we may be perfect as He is.

Let me reiterate, that He only is perfect, perfect in those attributes that Jesus speaks of in the passage, attributes of blessing and forgiveness. This command is for believers to pursue, and as we have come to understand the commands of God, they are to be recognized as a reflection of His own character, of His glory and being. It is an amazing teaching the Lord gave to us in this passage, in that He based His command to followers to love and forgive on the very nature of God.

God does not ask us (require of us) that which He does not have within His own nature!

I suppose it comes down to this. Am I limiting the Father’s unchanging nature and character of forgiveness, even through the terrors of hell? Or to consider it from another perspective, is there a set time only for each soul in that His forgiveness is available?

Grudges & Vengeance

One other item to note, is that the very passage the Lord refers to in Matthew 5, (Leviticus 19:18) speaks of the believer not bearing grudges, or taking vengeance. Even in the Old Testament (as we should expect, since He changes not), the nature of the Lord was the foundation of the command for the believer’s actions and heart life toward our neighbors. No grudge is to be nurtured. No vengeance to be exercised.

Leviticus 19:17-18

You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

The believer is commanded to enter frank and honest reasoning with their neighbor. What a lost relationship skill in this age of “social” media, but I digress.

How do you see this challenging passage in Matthew? Is there merit to Mr. McDonald’s understanding of the unchanging forgiving nature of the Father? Do you believe the nature and character of the Father will switch from One who forgives to One who seeks vengeance and retribution upon a soul entering death? If so, is there allowance for the believer to also have opportunity to switch from a forgiving spirit to a vengeful spirit?

Let me know, for I have had some whoppers of neighbors (thankfully not currently) that in my opinion, certainly deserved my vengeance!

How do you “see” the Father?


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Eternal Torment · Hell · Interpretation

Perishing in Eternal Torment

The lost will perish, but what does that mean?

apollumi 1

To perish. What does it mean?

The greek word Apollumi is translated as

  1. perish
  2. destroy
  3. lose
  4. lost
  5. destroyed
  6. perished
  7. perisheth
  8. die
  9. loseth
  10. mar

I find it interesting that Apollumi is the word Jesus used in John 3:16, describing the fate of those that believe not.

Previously when I have considered John 3:16, I have consistently understood it like this…

John 3 :16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not experience unending suffering, but have everlasting life.

Is that what the Master meant to communicate?

apollumi 3

What if I understood Apollumi as synonymous with “experiencing unending suffering” in all the other instances it appears in the New Testament?

The following verses will have the greek term Apollumi replaced with “experience unending suffering”. As you may find out, some verses make no sense at all.

I will offer a few verses to make my point in some areas, but if the reader would like to refer to each verse using “Apollumi”, refer to the following document

Bottles suffering unending torment?

Matt 9 :17

Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles experience unending suffering: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Hair suffering unending torment?

Luke 21 :18

But there shall not an hair of your head experience unending suffering.

Food (Meat) suffering unending torment?

John 6 :27

Labour not for the meat which experiences unending suffering, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Gold suffering unending torment?

1 Peter 1 :7

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that experiences unending suffering, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Those who do not take up the sword may escape suffering unending torment?

Matt 26 :52

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall experience unending suffering with the sword.

Drowning is equivalent to suffering unending torment?

Mark 4 :38

And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we experience unending suffering?

The place of suffering unending torment is between the altar and the temple?

Luke 11 :51

From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which experienced unending suffering between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Sheep suffer unending torment?apollumi 4

Luke 15 :6

And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was experiencing unending suffering.

Prodigals suffer unending torment but can escape by changing their mind?

Luke 15 :24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was experiencing unending suffering, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15 :32

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was experiencing unending suffering, and is found.

Self preservation results in suffering unending torment!

Luke 17 :33

Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall experience unending suffering; and whosoever shall experience unending suffering in his life shall preserve it.

John 12 :25

He that loveth his life shall experience unending suffering it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Wisdom suffering eternal torment?

1 Corinthians 1:19

For it is written, I will experience unending suffering the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

A Christian suffering eternal torment?Lake-of-fire

Is this really saying what I think it is saying? Either it means eternal torment, which means a Christian may loose their faith/salvation or the word does not necessarily mean unending conscious torment and suffering.

Rom 14 :15

But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Don’t force unending suffering on him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

1 Corinthians 8 :11

And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother experience unending suffering, for whom Christ died?

The world experience unending torment?

2 Peter 3 :6

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, experienced unending suffering:

The heavens and the earth will experience unending suffering – Now that is beyond me!

Hebrews 1 :11

They shall experience unending suffering; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

The resurrection of Jesus Himself may be compromised if the definition of Apollumi equals suffering unending torment.

We know that He was raised from the dead so this can only be an error on the part of Caiaphas! (If only John hadn’t mentioned that this statement was a prophecy of the Messiahs sacrifice!!!)

John 18 :14

Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should experience unending suffering for the people.

So what is the conclusion of the matter?apollumi 5

It is not as clear cut as I had once assumed! Apollumi seems to have the meaning of destruction/perishing/lostness, but not necessarily eternal unending suffering. Of course, some verses may seem to make sense by bringing this meaning to the verse, like the following

Matt 18 :14

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should experience unending suffering.

One could import the idea of eternal suffering into this context, but it is not the only way to read it!

Luke 13 :5

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise experience unending suffering.

Of course if Jesus meant that the hearers would be destroyed by invading armies due to their sin, the idea of eternal suffering need not be imported.

Matt 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to experience unending suffering both soul and body in hell.

If Jesus was referring to hades/the grave when he mentioned hell (check Strongs Concordance), the Father is able to destroy both body and soul after death. Either both body and soul endure eternal torment, or both body and soul are destroyed. It is interesting to note that the first phrase does not use destroy but kill. The body is not destroyed, but simply lifeless. (Soul and body are separated!) The destruction of both is up to the Father.

Eternal Fire 3

Some verses may be used to prop up the eternal torment teaching and may be viable interpretations. If I seem to be doubting the teaching of eternal torment, it is because I think I wanna figger out what the apostles want to teach me.

I cant learn from them if I keep correcting them.


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Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.