Calvinism · Contradiction · Doctrinal · Eschatology · Hell · Universalism

Book Look – Jesus Undefeated – Passage 3

consideringthebibletogether

Recently I have been in discussions with some friends that read my blog fairly consistently and they have, in an effort to understand my beliefs, have baited me by calling me a universalist.

That is fair, since I may not have defined every specific teaching as they may want, most likely due to the fact I honestly haven’t come to a settled persuasion on some of the teaching they may ask about me.

Initially, as I have stated in previous posts, I was surprised with the number of passages that support an evangelical universal reconciliation teaching. Please do not think that this teaching is the same as the “all roads lead to heaven” teaching, which I consider to be blasphemous. There is only one way to the Father, and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

With this, I would like to begin delving into some of the New Testament passages Mr. Giles brought to my attention, for your consideration, edification and civil discussion.

Regarding the book itself, I read it in one sitting, not simply because it was under 200 pages, but that it was challenging my thought process and I found it enjoyable reading. If this topic interests you, please pick up a copy. It is well worth your time.

Our third blog post will begin with passage 3, Romans 5:18-19

Passage 3

Romans 5:18-19

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

It is interesting, as I look for solid teaching on the rebuttal of this verse, that many teachers go out of the way to explain what Paul is not teaching. In one commentary, by James Montgomery Boice, he makes the following statement regarding verse 18. (italics mine)

All men… all men – Paul is using all men with two different meanings for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in the Hebrew Old Testament, which is similar Paul’s repetition of the phrase the many in Romans 5:15 (note). The first all covers all humanity who are born into Adam. The second all refers to that part of the first all who by grace through faith are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ (Paul repeatedly emphasizes righteousness and faith – see notes Romans 1:16; 17; 3:22; 3:28; 4:5; 4:13. To reiterate – Paul is not teaching universal salvation.)

How is it that in using the same phrase, we can negate Paul’s possible intent simply by referring to parallelism? (I understood parralelism to be a method of teaching that reiterated a particular truth in a parallel phrase – Is that incorrect?)

It is telling that this master teacher has to repeat – “Paul is not teaching universal salvation” This reiteration seems to be provided since without it, the text, when simply read, speaks of “One act of righteousness leading to justification and life for all men”. Paul does not explain how this works out in the plan of God, but does give us a summary of his argument in verses 18-19.

Mr Giles quote is helpful from his book.

“Paul leaves us very little wiggle room to read this any other way than what it plainly appears to say: That in the same way everyone was made a sinner due to Adam’s sin, everyone will be made righteous because of Christs obedience.”

I agree with Mr. Giles logic, and yet I refuse to be a “one verse” Christian. I am sure you may have met the believer who rests his entire trust in a specific teaching on a few favorite proof texts, not considering passages that may provide balance, that may provide the whole counsel of God. I grant that focusing on a few verse to maintain a position is appealing, yet it may not produce the well rounded, mature believer that we are to grow up into.

As I have mentioned many times in this blog, the Bible is not equal to a comic strip such as Garfield. A sideways glance at a verse will not produce a deep faith. An overemphasis on a few verses will not result in a balanced faith.

Is the Universal Reconciliation teaching too good to be true? I would ask my reader why we restrict the good news of the life and death of our Messiah?

Why do we take the elder brothers stance when we consider that the love of God may extend much farther that we understand or comprehend.

How do you understand this challenging verse. Can you find a way to avoid the conclusion Mr. Giles offers above, without referring to other passages, but simply from the immediate context?

I look forward to the discussion.

Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.

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140 thoughts on “Book Look – Jesus Undefeated – Passage 3”

  3. Romans 5:18
    ……….one effected righteousness to all men ( without distinction) to justification of life

    Romans 5:19
    ………….through the obedience of The One The many ( without distinction) shall be constituted righteous

    Jesus Christ by His obedience made His imputed perfect righteousness effectual for The many (His people ) that He promised to save who The father gave to Him who will never be lost.

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      1. I have the impression is you are determined to to believe that every single individual that has ever lived will live and is living will be constituted righteous

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        1. Not determined but open to the possibility until Scripture convinces my otherwise.
          For you, I know you believe God damns most of His creation to eternal flames and suffering without any hope of finding salvation, people CREATED by God to suffer eternal anguish.

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          1. Does scripture take precedence over your feelings? What are you going to do when the light shines on the fact that Romans 9:11 says God hates and loves and chooses unconditionally. You probably already know it because it plainly says it.
            Will you say scripture hasn’t convinced you yet?

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            1. Does scriptures take precedence over your logic? When will you allow all of scripture to instruct you. John 3:16 (and many other scriptures) says God loves the world.
              I suppose scripture hasn’t convinced you yet

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              1. Yes, scripture takes precedence God loves the world ! Does world mean earth ? Does it mean what he created that was good? Does world mean Gentile as well as Jew since the Israelites as a nation thought they were the only ones God loves? Does world mean every single individual that has ever lived or is living or will live?

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                    6. You are saying He failed from what you wrote Scripture says He does all His desires and accomplishes all His desires; yet you say He didn’t accomplish all His desires in that He is not willing that “none” ( the word actually is “any” ( of His elect) perish; but I understand why you can’t admit that God failed because the heresy of “Free Will” goes down the drain if you do admit it and you contradict scripture.

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                    13. The subject of God does all His desires and accomplishes all His desires one being the desire of every individual that has ever lived is living and will live to be saved who knows the end from the beginning; but, yet, this false god can’t accomplish what He desires when He said He accomplishes all His desires.

                      This definitely without much effort on my part makes me think is contradicting and if considered the least viable is confusing and crazy. When all this crazy talk is boiled down, you end up with the heresy of “Free Will” which doesn’t exist.

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                    19. If a person’s often labeled “decision” for Christ (whatever that means)makes the difference between salvation and damnation, then they make the difference between salvation and damnation not the work and person of Christ alone. They get the glory not God which contradicts scripture, once again

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                    22. Jesus said “ This is the work of God” that you believe in the whom He sent
                      So all the glory goes to God; since Faith in the Gospel is His work; just like the Bible says

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                    31. You don’t want to use the verse John 6:44 and John 6:65 no one comes unless it is given to them by the Father and no one comes unless they are drawn and no one comes unless they believe the truth that Jesus Christ and His work are the only grounds of salvation without any effort from the sinner because you are void of any righteousness of your own. Those all are gifts given by the Father. It is not by the will of man Romans 9:16

                      Jesus gives eternal life only to those the Father gives to Him chosen from before the foundation of the world and only those people will never be lost.

                      If someone comes to Christ, they believe and no one comes unless they are given by the Father to Jesus. They won’t come unless given faith because no one comes that isn’t given by the Father. The Father therefore has to give faith otherwise they don’t come. Man’s will is not what brings him to Christ; but by only the mercy of God thru generation from above. You know all the scriptures.

                      2 Corinthians 4:6— God does the shining into the heart; not man. Salvation is totally an act of God from regeneration to final glorification where He makes His people sinless and It is not by the empty concept of “ Free Will” from a dead sinner that needs to be made alive.

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                    36. God makes you willing; and not by force. You gladly receive the end result.

                      The thief on the cross was given repentance, a change of mind, by God after He started out severely mocking Jesus; just like the other plunderer; then after God soften his heart, He most wonderfully and willingly said at the end after acknowledging his unrighteousness and recognizing the righteousness of God.

                      “ Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom “

                      The thief knew he was going to die that day and He knew Jesus was going to die that day.

                      So, consequently there was no natural way possible for The thief to generate the desire to have said

                      “ Lord, remember me when you come in your kingdom” if God hadn’t generated in him a new heart and a new spirit; causing him to believe the Gospel of salvation by Grace and leave the family of Satan

                      Jesus said “Today you will be with me in Paradise”

                      How simple an example of the Grace and the generating Power of God unto salvation to the believing through the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ.

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                    41. I believe; but you believe and we both believe in different God’s. You pray to a God that cannot save without the cooperation and the untampered will of the sinner that thinks the unconditional efficacious and effectual work of Christ doesn’t secure salvation for His unconditionally chosen people. He thinks that is a foolish and hateful spiritual thing.

                      You have stated that in so many metaphorical terms. You hate that God that chose unconditionally those to be saved and damned.

                      I pray to a God that is in total control of all things who has to draw spiritually dead people to himself by making them spiritually alive which gives faith in the true Gospel to those chosen from before the foundation of the world.

                      The scripture says all the father gives will not be lost. No conditions attached in the statement. The Father is in control

                      I pray to Him because He decides who will be saved and when they will be saved. Please look at the account of the Apostle Paul and Read Romans 10:1-4 The Apostle is praying for lost Israelites that didn’t know the righteousness of God. Why would He pray to God for someone’s salvation if it wasn’t the work of God and God wasn’t in total control.

                      Please correct my assessment, if incorrect

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                    44. I would like to rephrase what I mean since it didn’t convey correctly to you. The work of God is generation from above ( The spirit blows where it desires) brings belief in the Gospel of Grace since He said “This is the work of God that you believe. Once you are generated from above, you believe the Gospel of Grace. Your works are the fruit from regeneration.

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                    49. Just to boil it down, I believe the scripture says belief in the Gospel of Grace is a direct and immediate result of generation from above since The Spirit blows where it desires The Spirit unconditionally and sovereignly chooses who will believe.

                      Does the scripture say this? To summarize

                      John 3:8- the spirit blows where it desires

                      John 6:37- the father unconditionally predestines to give

                      Romans 9:11- unconditionally chosen before time

                      Jeremiah 1:5-before I formed you in the womb ( I knew thee) ( unconditionally loved thee)

                      Galatians 1:15-16
                      God called and revealed himself to The Apostle Paul ( the apostle didn’t prompt God)

                      Matthew 11:27- God reveals himself to His people He promised to save

                      Romans 9:13- unconditional love and hate

                      Matthew 1:21- God promises to save His people

                      John 6:29- This is the work of God that you believe ( The Gospel of Grace)

                      Romans 9:17- raised up Pharaoh to show His wrath and make His power known

                      Romans 9:20 God makes vessels unconditionally either fitted out for destruction or for mercy

                      John 6:44 no one comes ( believes) unless dragged or drawn because you were dead prior to being made alive through regeneration

                      John 6:65- no one comes ( believes) unless it is given

                      The objector says and responds to
                      Romans 9:18-23

                      Why does He yet find fault ? Who can resist His will?

                      The God of the Bible sovereignly controls and causes all things because He is the omniscient creator of all.

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                    51. If I was a spiritually dead sinner with no interest in a God that controls and causes all things then that belief in the gospel of pure grace was a gift through regeneration Yes

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                    52. Can a spiritually dead person accept a spiritual thing contrary to his nature ? No The natural man thinks it is foolishness so the only way to be converted is generation from above and from John 3:8 The spirit blows where it wills

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                    57. Now you are telling me I cannot sense your attitude about your pure doctrine? I don’t recall a time when you responded to a challenge without simply providing proof texts and your narrow interpretation.
                      Don’t get me wrong. You are entitled to your belief system. You own it. It is your faith.
                      How you “handle” your doctrine/faith/teaching with other believers is the “message” I’m referring to.

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                    61. My objective is to defend the sovereign and complete control of God from scripture that is at odds with the false gospel of the Free Will of man

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                    62. You are again setting up a false dichotomy.

                      And with that false dichotomy a straw man argument that you erect and then state to be in error.

                      Also, we have discussed previously, but I feel it bears repeating. To be sovereign does not equal complete control.

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                    63. To keep you from jumping through loopholes on the word “ Sovereign “
                      I use now That God sovereignly causes and controls all things

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                    69. God determined all things before creation. He knows all things because He determined all things before creation. He is in complete control of things because He causes all things and determined all things because He created ALL things; even your thoughts and actions. You are only able to think and do what He determined to be done before creation. Otherwise, His plan could be thwarted by man. God is not subjected to some unknown freedom of man from God. The objector understood it in Romans 9 Why can’t you? Or maybe you are a secret objector using the explanation I haven’t seen it yet in scripture. Do you think you do things outside His decretive Will? He accomplishes all His desires He desires All Men to be saved; so All Men will be saved even if they are a spiritually dead person resisting God which is all of natural man whose father is Satan. Revelation 7:9

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                    72. God knew Pharaoh wouldn’t let the Israelites go because He totally controlled Pharaoh by hardening his heart
                      So, I didn’t create my own definition It is a biblical definition

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                    73. Here is another example of God’s prior knowledge because of His totally controlling a man’s heart which controls his thoughts and actions

                      In Deuteronomy 2:30
                      Jehovah caused Sihon the King of Heshbon to be unwilling ….because Jehovah had hardened his heart and Jehovah knew this from before the foundation of the world because He totally was in control of his thoughts and actions through the hardening of the heart and desired Sihon to fulfill His Will which Jehovah always accomplishes

                      So, this fulfills my claim that God has prior knowledge because He sovereignly and totally controls the thoughts and actions of people by hardening the heart to accomplish His Will according to the counsel of His Will according to purpose for His glory and the benefit of His people

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                    74. You must need another example of the biblical God sovereignly and totally controlling the thoughts of individuals through controlling the heart since the heart produces thoughts and actions
                      In Psalms 105:25

                      “He turned their heart to hate His people”…. Here we have God sovereignly totally controlling the heart and the thoughts that come out of the heart to hate His people and He has prior knowledge because of His total control

                      So knowledge sovereignty and totally controlling are together attributes of the biblical even though you say are not synonymous

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                    76. Knowing and controlling are not synonymous; but the scripture showed in a previous comment or comments, giving scripture, they are attributes of the True God in His relationship with His creation.
                      Jehovah has knowledge of the future relating to His creation because He is in total control of His creation through, for example, His turning of the heart to think and do according to His purpose according to the counsel of His will. You remained silent. At least you must have realized what the scripture said to the point you didn’t say “ That is your belief”

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                    79. “You are again setting up a false dichotomy.
                      And with that false dichotomy a straw man argument that you erect and then state to be in error.”
                      Comment
                      If a spiritually dead man is not interested in spiritual things and thinks the efficacious Cross of Christ is foolishness, where is the straw man in saying, he has no free Will to come to Christ since the natural man’s preference is one sided and shows the opposite.

                      His nature causes his one sided preference and his inability due to his nature shows his lack of freedom and freedom to come to Christ.

                      After all John 6:44 and John 6:65 support the fact that natural man has no freedom to come because he is in bondage to sin.

                      Belief in the Gospel causes one to come to Christ and since no one comes unless it is given, then The Father must give belief in the Gospel of Christ in order to come.

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                    87. I understand scripture to say generation from above produces belief in the Gospel of Christ John 3:3-8 because natural man thinks the effectual Cross of Christ is foolishness. I Corinthians 1:18 2:
                      I believe the scripture says A person must be made alive spiritually by God. John 5:21
                      I believe the scripture to say God reveals himself unconditionally to who whom He chooses to reveal himself. Matthew 11:27

                      You believe your receiving or acceptance of Christ comes first then generation from above makes you a child of God after receiving Christ. You believe when God makes His people willing you are being forced.

                      These are different Gospels
                      One is by Grace alone.
                      One is conditioned on the sinners freedom to respond in accordance with his untampered Will.

                      Please correct me if I misunderstood your position.

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                    88. Col 2:12Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead

                      Why does Paul refer to “your faith” when speaking of thier regeneration? He doesn’t say “the faith God forced on you”

                      I believe you are stuck in your logic and refuse to consider any passage honestly that might challenge your logic.

                      But it is your faith and you are responsible for your decision to claim that the God who is love, actually hates most of His creation.

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                    89. Buried in baptism (of the spirit) Matthew 3:11 ( regeneration) John 3:3-8
                      Once you receive generation from above, you believe the Gospel ( faith), you are made alive from the dead by God to whom He wills to reveal himself; it then becomes your faith; not someone else’s faith. The just shall live by faith

                      You really shouldn’t use your emotions
                      “But it is your faith and you are responsible for your decision to claim that the God who is love, actually hates most of His creation.”

                      God says He hates Esau unconditionally. God says He loves Jacob unconditionally.
                      God says He desires All Men to be saved. The scripture says He accomplishes all His desires. Why isn’t every individual saved? Why do you insist on contradicting scripture because you want God to love everyone ?
                      Whether you accept the scripture or not God is love. I don’t recall scripture saying God is hate; but we know from scripture God does hate and He made the wicked for the day of evil Proverbs 16:4
                      If the scripture says He hates unconditionally, then He hates unconditionally. I didn’t write Romans 9:11

                      The objector was objecting to why God finds fault when he hardens people unconditionally because no one can resist His will. I didn’t write that!

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                    95. No, all things are not possible with God; He doesn’t contradict His word and He doesn’t fail at accomplishing His desires or will.

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                    97. Please, please, Mr. Considering the Bible Consider the Bible. God doesn’t lie for another example that all things are not possible with God.

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                    99. I don’t possibly don’t understand the question but I’m thinking along, a guess, I think you believe God can make a person with a Will that is free from His causation

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                    103. Whatever hate is, it is the opposite of Love; since not all are saved. The ones not saved are hated. Before I formed you in the womb I knew ( loved) thee Jacob was loved and Esau was hated before they had done

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                    105. Love and hate appear to be terms that can be used referring to unconditionally chosen or not chosen persons from before the foundation of the world since they are chosen or reprobated before created and done anything good or bad.
                      Romans 9:11

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                    114. Please refer to the context ….. of what is impossible with God … the converting of a rich man is not impossible with God

                      Matthew 19:24

                      And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to pass through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

                      You are a one verse at a time exegete; but the Bible says no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation

                      You just took this one verse and if taken to your extreme, God can sin since nothing is impossible with God

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                3. Does the world God loves mean Jew and Gentile believers that He is saving out of fallen creation; Are Jews and Gentiles composed of “All Men” taken from every nation, even tribes, peoples and languages; the believing?

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      2. Interlinear From Bible Hub for Romans 5:19 The positioning of “The many” seems to present a better rendering of “The many”

        …..”Sinners were made “The many”
        …..”Righteous will be made “The many”

        19 5618 [e]
        19 hōsper
        19 ὥσπερ
        19 For as
        19 Adv

        1063 [e]
        gar
        γὰρ
        for
        Conj

        1223 [e]
        dia
        διὰ
        through
        Prep

        3588 [e]
        tēs
        τῆς
        the
        Art-GFS

        3876 [e]
        parakoēs
        παρακοῆς
        disobedience
        N-GFS

        3588 [e]
        tou
        τοῦ
        of the
        Art-GMS

        1520 [e]
        henos
        ἑνὸς
        one
        Adj-GMS

        444 [e]
        anthrōpou
        ἀνθρώπου ,
        man
        N-GMS

        268 [e]
        hamartōloi
        ἁμαρτωλοὶ
        sinners
        Adj-NMP

        2525 [e]
        katestathēsan
        κατεστάθησαν
        were made
        V-AIP-3P

        3588 [e]
        hoi
        οἱ
        the
        Art-NMP

        4183 [e]
        polloi
        πολλοί ,
        many
        Adj-NMP

        3779 [e]
        houtōs
        οὕτως
        so
        Adv

        2532 [e]
        kai
        καὶ
        also
        Conj

        1223 [e]
        dia
        διὰ
        through
        Prep

        3588 [e]
        tēs
        τῆς
        the
        Art-GFS

        5218 [e]
        hypakoēs
        ὑπακοῆς
        obedience
        N-GFS

        3588 [e]
        tou
        τοῦ
        of the
        Art-GMS

        1520 [e]
        henos
        ἑνὸς ,
        One
        Adj-GMS

        1342 [e]
        dikaioi
        δίκαιοι
        righteous
        Adj-NMP

        2525 [e]
        katastathēsontai
        κατασταθήσονται
        will be made
        V-FIP-3P

        3588 [e]
        hoi
        οἱ
        the
        Art-NMP

        4183 [e]
        polloi
        πολλοί .
        many
        Adj-NMP

        I’m sorry about the jagged pasting but I didn’t know how to copy and paste any other way from Bible Hub application for

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  4. Considering the Bible Quote:
    “How is it that in using the same phrase, we can negate Paul’s possible intent simply by referring to parallelism? (I understood parralelism to be a method of teaching that reiterated a particular truth in a parallel phrase – Is that incorrect?)”

    I agree, the definition of “All Men” should have the same parallel meaning in addition to the same parallel meaning of “ The many” in verse 19

    Romans 5:18
    So therefore, as through one deviation came to all men to condemnation, so also through one effected righteousness came to all men to justification of life.

    “All Men” in verse 18 gives a broad stroke by meaning “all men” without distinction; then in verse 19 “ The many” definition narrows down the meaning of “ All Men “ to “The Many” that Adam represented as him being the head of all he represented and “The Many” that Jesus Christ represented as He being the head of all He represented.

    Romans 5:19

    19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous.

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    1. What restricts “the many” to fewer than all. He didn’t write “most”. There is a difference! Most of a group would be a fraction of the whole, but not so with the word “many”.
      All of something could equal many of something.

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      1. The Greek word 4183 “ many” means essentially numerous

        So we wouldn’t definitely conclude that means every single individual that has lived or will live or is living.

        The Many is All of whom Adam represented and The Many is All of whom Jesus Christ represented

        The Many is All that Adam represented that were condemned and experienced the 2nd death

        The Many is All that Jesus Christ represented that were constituted righteous.

        We know that not all individuals are constituted righteous from reading
        John 6:37-44 John 10:11,15 Revelation 7:9 and Revelation 20:15

        So, how could we ever claim “The Many” to mean (all individuals that have ever existed to be constituted righteous)
        It is impossible to conclude that especially considering Revelation 20:15

        The Many in both cases is a numerous amount of people representative of “All Men” without distinction(a separate many in each case) taken from All nations, even tribes, peoples and languages. “All Men” without distinction other than who’s head they were belonging to Christ or Adam.

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      2. “What restricts “the many” to fewer than all”

        I assume you mean every individual that will live is living and has lived.

        “The many will shall be constituted righteous ”. Romans 5:19

        All of the many from Jew and Gentile shall be constituted righteous; but every individual that has ever lived, will live or is living will not be constituted righteous. I would think Revelation 7:9 and Revelation 20:15 shows all men, The Many, out of every nation even tribes peoples and languages will be constituted righteous

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          1. The many constituted righteous comes from all men, Jew and Gentile from every nation even tribes peoples and languages. Since all are not constituted with the imputed righteousness of Christ, how else can you slice it?

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          3. Can God save autonomously or does He need your permission?

            I think we have probably already covered this concept in other words and I think you have already answered when you said He can’t or won’t force anyone to believe the Gospel of Christ

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