As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the second portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Scripture says God is sovereign in his decision to whom he will have mercy which is in accordance with Romans 9:16 and other scripture Romans 9:15,18 The natural man doesn’t come and can’t come 1 Corinthians 2:14 John 6:44 John 6:65 He doesn’t have the ability because he lacks spiritual discernment because he doesn’t have the spirit.
This is another favorite verse of the theologically deterministic thinking folks, Calvin’s disciples that is.
John 6:65 – And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Why? Why did Jesus tell them that no man can come to Him unless it is granted him by the Father? Let’s take a few moments to check the context.
John 6:60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
John 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?
John 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Jesus had just finished teaching a hard saying, that is that He was the bread of Life. In verse 51, Jesus equates Himself with the true manna, and instructs those who would live forever to eat of this bread. This is a very very hard saying for a good Jew to understand, since it may imply cannibalism.
Of course the Lord meant it spiritually, and this was a genius move on the Lords method of winnowing out the ones who were simply following for the wrong reasons.
Are you following for the sake of the food (and miracles)? Or are you following because I am the true Deliverer, even if my message seems hard or difficult?
The Jews were in a tizzy, taking the message literally.
There are two audiences in this passage – the literalists – those who question the ability to eat of the Messiah’s actual flesh (WOW) and those who understand the message as a symbolic or spiritual message. Note that verse 60 opens the immediate context, where the disciples speak of the “hard saying” The message is the topic!
Jesus responds, asking if they are going to take offence at the message. After the bread message, Jesus actually warns them of more difficult saying that will be coming, such as in verse 62, speaking of His ascension. Things weren’t going to get easier for those who sought to follow Him!
Verse 63 is a defining verse. My very first preaching in a church was based on this passage, and looking back, I had it all messed up. Nevertheless, my understanding now is as follows.
- The Spirit gives life. (The Spirit doesn’t force life)
- The flesh is no help (Eating the body of the Messiah is not the message!)
- The words that Jesus spoke are spirit and life. Jesus, in giving the message, was providing the spirit of the message and was the method the Father was using to bring men to the Messiah and life.
Now to our supposed proof passage.
.. “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Jesus is speaking of the reception of the words He provides to the masses, not of some secret mysterious will that is conjured up in the minds of some theologians.
Lets consider the action of the Father in this verse. The one coming is granted by the Father. It seemed a funny word to use in this translation, but after reviewing some study books, found it is synonymous with “enabled”. The same idea of the Father enabling the one coming is similar in our previous post on John 6:44.
Enable / Compel
There is a difference.
To be enabled does not equate with to be compelled. I can enable my children to attend a function by inviting them, providing times and addresses and durations for the event. Many may come, but one may not come. Enabling my child to attend does not compel them, or force them to come to the function.
So lets wrap up some of our thoughts. The words of Jesus are the focus, and the words of Jesus include the enabling of those coming. Peter admitted to understanding this when challenged if they will leave the Messiah. He answered – “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
The gospel is the invitation. The words of Jesus is the life giving message. The message was believed, and Peter (along with most of the remaining disciples) knew that Jesus was the Holy One of God. This belief was a result of hearing the message Jesus preached and taught.
As an aside, for my friends who are leaning in the deterministic camp, consider that Jesus chose Judas (vs 6:70), yet was the very one that betrayed the Lord, that fell from grace. That is if he ever walked in grace at all! How is it that the one chosen should be the one who betrays? This is confusing if the choices were made before the foundation of the world!
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Considering the Bible 
Yes, the conclusion is The Father gives faith to those He gives to Jesus; so they will come to Him believing
John 6:36-37 and John 6:64-65 is enough even though there is support in scripture elsewhere
The key is All the Father gives will come because they have been given the belief which comes at the drawing of the Holy Spirit through generation of a new heart that becomes a new creation
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It fits because no one is able to come unless they believe
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Again that is based on your belief in absolute determinism. And that is your choice to see it that way.
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God determined all things from before the foundation of the world; therefore, all things are determined.
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That is your belief, and I understand you are convinced of it.
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I will say john 6:36-37 and John 6:64-65 ( 2 witnesses) together makes it very very plainly understandable. They both have exactly the same meaning.
I’m not going to argue with scripture and become the objector in Romans 9.
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That is your conclusion.
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Here is more proof that belief is a gift to the ones the Father gives to Jesus
John 6:36
But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
John 6:37
All who the Father gives to Me shall come (believing) to Me, and the one coming (believing) to Me I will not cast out, not ever,
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This is the same verses I just responded to. check out
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You distorted your explanation when you tried to say the Greek word for “ granted” means enabled in this verse
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Are you saying granted means to force, so that the verse should be translated….
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is FORCED ON him by the Father.”
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The Greek says “ granted” or “given”
These people in verses John 6:36-37 and John 6:36-37 could not believe because they weren’t given faith because The Father hadn’t given them to Jesus. No one is able to come to Jesus until the Father gives them belief of the Gospel
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Unless the Father forces them
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No one forced anyone. What does the scripture say?
Psalm 110:3
Your people shall have willingnesses in the day of Your strength; in the majesties of holiness; from the womb of the dawn, to You is the dew of Your youth.
His people love that He made them willing to come to Him.
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You have changed from the scripture we have been discussing in john. Your interpretation of john 6 makes the word granted mean the same as forced.
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That is crazy 😜 “Granted” means “Given” just like the translations say.
Every believer loves being made willing to believe which causes them to come
Psalm 110:3
Your people shall have willingnesses in the day of Your strength; in the majesties of holiness; from the womb of the dawn, to You is the dew of Your youth
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So every believer loves being forced to come
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No, every believer loves to be made willing
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The key is John 6:36 and John 6:64
Jesus directly links “not believing” to not being given by the Father
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I’m looking at your beginning part of your response above
“At the point of salvation the Spirit of God takes up residence in our corporate (1 Cor 3:16) and personal life (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20) and a battle begins (Galatians 6:8). “
Question
What or Who determines the point of salvation ?
What does it mean “ in our corporate and personal life?”
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Q1 I dont know other than when I believed, that’s when I got saved.
Q2 corporate life means group life body life, being with believers. The passage in chpt 3 speaks of the spirit in the group of believers
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What did you believe? Where did that faith come from ? Was it a gift ?Was it generated from above by God? Was this belief something you created inside of you and was generated by you? Was it an accidental occurrence? Did you have something inside of you that someone who doesn’t believe didn’t have so they were left void and empty to create inside of them this belief?
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It’s a mystery as we are spiritually dead and cannot save ourselves. And Jesus taught both that God desires all to be saved yet Jesus could only bring those to Himself that the Father calls. The important part Sur is that people need to hear the gospel to be awakened.
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I totally agree of the desperate need for an awakening.
Can I ask you a question?
What does it mean to be spiritually dead?
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Sure. We are all born devoid of the Spirit of life, ie. without the Holy Spirit of God. When we confess our sins & give our lives to Christ, the Holy Spirit inhabits us and makes us alive spiritually. I wasn’t raised Christian so never knew about this till became born again.
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Awesome. I’m so glad you have come to know the living God.
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Thank you!
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If Job 23:13 and Isaiah 46:10 reveal that God does all his desires, and if God desires all individuals that have ever lived, is living and will live to be saved, why isn’t everyone going to be saved?
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I think there is a possibility that God may be victorious in the end. Some scripture leans that way, and I am currently looking at the case for that teaching.
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God was victorious from the foundation of the world in His predetermined plan.
Job 23:13 and Isaiah 46:10 says he always accomplishes His will.
Romans 9:19 reveals that no one can resist His will.and since in
1Timothy 2:10 He desires all men to be saved.
In Revelation 7:9 and Revelation 20-15,
we receive the revelation that all individuals are not saved
Then scripture leads us into the no choice deduction that God desires all classes of men to be saved demonstrated in
Revelation 7:9
After these things I saw, and behold, a large multitude which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and languages, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.
Consequently, All God’s desires are accomplished and all men that He desires to save is saved.
John 6:37-44
All that the Father gave will not be lost.
Matthew 1:21
God fulfilled His promise of saving His people
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It’s baffling.
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I can only figure that my understanding is limited of the unlimited God. For, as He says, “My thoughts are not your thoughts.”
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Although, we can know what is written
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True but the Bible seems to teach both election and free will. Only God can call spiritually dead people to life. Dead people cannot resurrect themselves. Yet we somehow need to respond. It’s a mystery. It’s our job to plant the seeds although we may not fully comprehend. For instance, I believe in the Trinity yet don’t fully comprehend Him. Or how He can love and die for the sinful who hate and reject Him. God bless.
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Yes, the Bible teaches election but the differences between the Free Will advocates and Sovereign Grace believers is whether election is conditional, dependence on man or whether election is by the unconditional sovereign will of God who chooses to mercy some and not others according to His purpose.
My understanding of free Will would assume man has the ability to choose between 2 equally preferred alternatives. To me that doesn’t make sense because if there are 2 equally preferred alternatives then how do you decide?
I think the Bible teaches we make choices according to our nature which God causes and is in control of because He knows the end from the beginning. If God wasn’t in control and caused all things then these verses below would not be true because God couldn’t interfere with man’s will and cause him to sin if truly free from God.
Remember God does not do the sin. God causes all things for glory and the good of His he has chosen unconditionally from before the foundation of the world
Proverbs 21:1
As streams of waters, the king’s heart is in the hand of Jehovah; He extends it wherever He desires.
Psalms 105:25
He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
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This just struck me funny you unnecessarily put on me the label of “Calvinist” when I use my own words to comment; but you keep dumping Leighton Flowers videos on your blog 😂 I haven’t labeled you a Leightonist 😂
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The point is
“All I can gather from “The Spirit breathes where it desires” is The Spirit goes where it desires The Spirit is Sovereign nothing else directs where it goes”
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I used scripture I can’t do anything else I’m irrelevant to what the scripture says
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Are you a chosen one?
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It must be difficult being a chosen one, walking amongst dirty sinners that are hated by God
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Sorry that does not believe the Gospel is condemned
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Mark 16:16 says he that doesn’t not believe the Gospel is condemned
So it must be important to know the actual biblical gospel Is it a Gospel of Grace or a Gospel of Free Will ?
Any Gospel that depends on the effort of man is not the Gospel of Grace
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Truth is Biblical Truth
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I agree. But I think you are telling me that everyone who disagrees with you is a heretic.
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Don’t You believe natural man has the inherent ability to believe the truth of the Gospel without generation (regeneration)?
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What do you mean by inherent?
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It means natural man has the ability within his nature to desire to believe the Gospel of Grace without being generated from above or (regenerated)
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In other words a person can believe the Gospel of Grace before he is generated ( regenerated) from above
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The gospel if grace that provides a suffering Savior to die for the whole world? Yes I believe that
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Just answer the question I asked!!
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I need to understand your belief. I refuse to discuss faith assuming what you believe, instead of understanding your faith (or trust in fate)
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You already know what i believe I’m discussing the nature of man which the Bible describes
Just answer the question!! does the Bible teach that natural man has the ability to desire or in other words believe the Gospel of Grace
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Does natural man need to be generated from above first or does he have the inherent ability to desire to believe the Gospel of Grace? Just answer the question Yes or No
You know scripture well enough to answer Yes or No
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Yes or no
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You like to divert and distract from this question. You know I’m asking for one but not both. I want you to give the answer that you hold to … Is it Yes or is the answer No
You know I don’t want you to repeat “Yes or No”
If you answer my question, since I asked first I will answer your questions.
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Just doing what you tell me to do. That is what those who indoctrinate others seek. Honest discussion is never encouraged so …
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Trying to take one step at a time and build from there. God is orderly. The Gospel of Grace is just that an act of Grace
Just answer the question; the answer is in scripture. You know scripture; just give your answer. It is either yes or no from your understanding of scripture. I want you to admit that your answer is the opposite of mine. We shouldn’t have to go through this unnecessary exercise.
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Just answer the question from 4 hours ago ! choose Yes or choose No
Here is the question once again
“Does natural man need to be generated from above first or does he have the inherent ability to desire to believe the Gospel of Grace? “
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You believe that most humans are condemned and without any hope
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I believe Jehovah loves His elect and saves everyone of them (a great multitude from every tongue, tribe and nation- see Revelation) and that the non elect are eternally damned before they have done anything bad (see Romans 9). Only the sovereign LORD knows the number of the elect and non elect.
Question for you now: you actually believe that the Messiah atoned for the sins of the non elect whom He knew before the foundation of the world that they would never believe the Gospel – yet He atoned for their sins and condemns them. How can He condemn them if He atoned for their sins and why would He atone for their sins when He knew perfectly that they would never believe in Him? What was the purpose of Him dying on the cross for non elect people who would never believe in the Gospel?
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1 John 2:2 ESV — He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
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Jews and Gentiles
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You believe that God rejoices in the torment of those He chose to condemn
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The opposite- God is pouring out His wrath upon the non elect whom He condemns for all eternity
The creature cannot appease the wrath and anger of the Holy Triune God, therefore they are eternally damned and the wrath of God does not stop
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18¶Therefore, as one trespassfn led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousnessfn leads to justification and life for all men.
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You really think all individual persons are justified- Romans 8
“ All men” from every nation even tribes peoples and languages
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Are you chosen?
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Answer the question. Are you chosen? Yes or no.
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I only know that I believe the Gospel and I’m not condemned
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Yes. You are not condemned but I will suffer for all eternity in hell according to your teaching, and unless I succumb to your fear based fatalistic gospel, I have no hope.
BTW the pharisees thought they were special also.
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Why don’t you believe the Gospel of Grace alone?
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You are chosen. I am not. God hates me.
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I will ask again Why don’t you trust the Gospel of Grace?
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I cant. I am hated by God because I’m not chosen like you.
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Why can’t you believe the Gospel of Grace? He commands all to repent
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How long have you known you were chosen?
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You told me I need to be regenerated to believe. God has to regenerate me and then I can believe. I have to wait to see if God loves me
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Do you believe the Gospel of Grace conditioned on Christ alone?
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I cant. You told me I can’t. Are you gonna change your teaching now?
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Until then I understand He hates me and will send me to hell like you teach
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You believe God is not luke Jesus, who accepted sinners and tax collectors
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God the Father chooses sinners and tax collectors among others from every nation even tribes, peoples and languages and Jesus redeems them and the Spirit generated from above
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A clear statement of your belief system, suited for my statement.
You also teach that God also chooses sinners and tax collectors to burn in hell forever.
You know, I dont remember any story of Jesus rejecting sinners.
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Romans 9 says He makes vessels fitted out for destruction So Revelation 20 says they go into lake of fire
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So God hates me but loves you. Got it. Thanks
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Where are your scriptures ?
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Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. —Romans 5:18
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. —Colossians 1:19-20
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. —Philippians 2:10-11
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. —Romans 11:32
“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” – 1 Corinthians 15:22
“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” – 1 Timothy 4:10
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You believe you are better than most other people because God chose you.
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This I will answer immediately The answer is absolutely not true!!!
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But He loves you but hates me
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Can’t you answer the question I originally asked?
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How did you determine that ? Is it because I use scripture to prove the Gospel of Grace
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No. You are chosen as Jacob. Jacob was loved by God. Esau was hated. Own it. You have told me that God loves you but hates me.
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You keep referring to me I’m using scripture I never mention anything about me being chosen and here you go again diverting to that which doesn’t apply I’m using scripture to prove the doctrine of the Gospel of Grace based on Christ’s work alone
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Are you not a chosen true believer, one who is loved by God, living amongst sinful haters of God (that are hated by God) and will roast in hell at the delight of God and His saints, of which you are one??
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There must be a difference!
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We both can read 2nd grade English; so yes there is a difference from the way you have expressed yourself.
Please answer the question; so it is clear to everyone that we have a different answer to the question.
I will answer the question; Yes you must be generated from above to believe the Gospel of Grace. I was up front about my answer What is your answer, once again?
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You say that but many of your texts sound like you are the chosen special child of God
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You just won’t answer the question
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I can not answer the question because it is impossible for me to answer the way you ask it.
Let me explain with another question.
Are you still beating your wife?
No matter how you answer locks you into a no win situation.
The topic we have been trying to discuss is more nuanced than your question implies, (at least in my opinion.)
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Your example doesn’t apply because the scripture is clear and plainly gives the answer which you want to ignore. You are diverting from answering with scripture the question
John 3:3,5,8 says no one sees or enters the kingdom of God unless sovereignly generated from above and not everyone is generated from above since not all believe the Gospel of Grace because they weren’t given by the Father, redeemed by the Son and generated by the Spirit.
The natural man is spiritually dead and because of that fact 1 Corinthians 2:14 he cannot accept spiritual things nor discern them because he is void of generation from above.
He thinks the effectual work of the cross of Christ is foolishness as you do; since you think he died for everyone even those in hell and actually didn’t pay for anyone’s sins; since it is up to the effort of the sinner to be saved and not the work of Christ alone. 1 Corinthians 1:18
So the answer to the question from scripture is what I said from scripture. God must sovereignly generate from above John 3:8 and must shine into the heart the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
2 Corinthians 4:6 in order to believe the Gospel of Grace conditioned on the work of Christ alone without any effort from the sinner. They must be given to the Son by the Father (Predestination) and God will let not one of them be lost which means they will be glorified.
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This is the same message you repeat over and over again. I get it. This is your faith. You have a hobby horse and you refuse to consider other issues. That is fine. That is also another reason I struggle to converse with you. You are always right. Enjoy your pure doctrine.
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Should I deviate from scripture? No
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Are you chosen?
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I believe the Gospel of Grace alone conditioned on Christ’s work and imputed righteousness alone without any effort from the sinner. This Gospel depicted in the Bible glorifies God not the God that cannot save
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So you are chosen. Good to know. You are loved by God. You are special.
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Anyone who does not believe your teaching is condemned to hell to suffer eternally and has no chance to believe ever.
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Mark 16:16
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All I know is that I believe the Gospel of Grace alone conditioned on Jesus Christ alone without any effort I know salvation by Grace alone I know this and know this from scripture
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How come you are so special to be chosen?
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I’m not special
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You are chosen. God loves you. He hates 90% of the world but loves you. I get it. All the rest of humanity that doesn’t believe your special teaching is simply human trash that will burn eternally in hell
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Jesus did say wide is the path that leads to destruction and many go in. There must be a bunch of false belief systems
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Boy I wish I was special to be chosen like you
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I believe the Gospel of Grace alone Why don’t you ?
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I can’t until God regenerates me. You told me I am hated by God until I am regenerated by God. Are you going to change your doctrine?
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If you don’t believe the Gospel of Grace alone, I don’t have to say anything the scripture says it in
Mark 16:16
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You have taught me I CAN’T believe. Why do you tease me when you know I can’t believe until I am regenerated.
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You keep saying I said you can’t Why would I keep commenting if that were true? God is control; not me I just keep trying to point out scripture that it points to a Gospel of Grace
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You are changing your teaching now!
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You are definitely able to believe in a god that cannot save because in this belief system God is dependent on man to Free Will himself into salvation if he chooses to be saved.
After all,The Serpent said you will be like God knowing good and evil. Genesis 2 Genesis 3 John 8:44
Your Free Will can save you; since you know the difference between good and evil; yet Romans 3:10-12 says no one seeks after (The True) God no not one.
There should be at least one person of Adam’s descendants that seek after the true God; since The serpent said you will be like God knowing good and evil.
The True Gospel of Christ to be believed says salvation is all dependent on the work of Jesus Christ and His imputed righteousness alone from regeneration to final glorification without any contribution from the sinner.
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You need to speak the truth and tell me God hates me since I am not chosen like you
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Are you dead physically?, if you aren’t, I can’t say that. I can just tell you once you admit you don’t believe the Gospel of Grace that you haven’t come to the knowledge of the Truth and are still lost.
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So I can’t believe until I’m regenerated. You teach that. I am condemned until God regenerates me.
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How long have you known you were chosen?
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And according to your teaching God hates me.
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I used to believe God loved me but thanks to your pure teaching, I understand your teaching that God hates me.
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How long have you known you were chosen?
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Yes you won’t believe it until generated from above Isn’t that what the scriptures say?
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That is your teaching and logically I should become an athiest until I am regenerated.
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I’m getting to the point nothing more can be constructed from scripture to convince you to just rely on scripture and forget natural man’s desire to be in control All I wanted to do is get you to admit that you can believe without being regenerated which from what I read is contrary to John 3:3,5,8 I’m going to have finish here and let it be
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How long have you known you were chosen?
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It had been many years since I discovered God is sovereign in his generation from above and shows mercy unconditionally to whom He wills and is the Potter instead of the clay
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How many?
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It had been a long process of many years since deciding to go with scripture which confirmed unconditional election and reprobation instead of listening to and trusting teachers that wouldn’t systematically use scripture
The key to everything is John 3:3,5,8 Regeneration must come first by God’s sovereign will to show mercy to whom He wills and harden whom He wills. I’m absolutely fine with that because He is righteous, I trust Him and I have nothing worthy to give him that would contribute to my salvation. It is all Christ who actually bought and paid for those the Father chose to give and the Son redeems and the spirit regenerates and makes alive to the true Sovereign Lord that controls all things.
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So you don’t know when you discovered you were chosen?
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You sure are lucky to be chosen.
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How many years have you known you were chosen???
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You live in arizona???
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Nope
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California???
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Yes
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How long have you known you were chosen?
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The Bible never puts it like that The Bible says Mark16:16
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How long have you known you were chosen???
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When I consider your teaching, it makes sense to become an athiest until He regenerates me. Why fool myself and deceive myself since God hates me and I cant do anything about it until He regenerates me. Why should I worry bout anything since it is all determined from before creation. This could be a very liberating teaching that you have taught!!!
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Why don’t you believe the Gospel of Grace alone conditioned on Christ’s work alone without any effort from you?
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I can’t believe until I’m regenerated. That’s what you teach. Are you now saying I can believe before I am regenerated?
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True but I have no idea if and when that might happen you have never admitted what you believe You never said you must be generated first to believe or denied it Well actually you did agree that you must but then I think by what you said it gave me the impression you were retracting that belief
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What?
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You may not remember but you actually agreed quite awhile ago that regeneration comes first before faith in the Gospel
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But you eventually did a flip
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I used to be a calvinist years back but have rejected it
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I’m not a calvinist
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Yes. Yes you are
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Calvinists to my knowledge don’t believe God makes vessels fitted out for destruction They believe God leaves them to act out their evil desires
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Which is contrary to Romans 9
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God fits the vessels fitted out for destruction They don’t fit themselves
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Right. So the vessel has no choice in its destiny.
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You sure like Roman’s 9
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My favorite chapter
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I’m going to have to end here. I have said all I can say from scripture The only point I wanted to make distinguishable between you and I was John 3:3,5,8 says you must be generated from above to believe the Gospel of Grace and you believe you don’t need to be regenerated from above to believe the Gospel.
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That is your statement.
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I guess you should explain what the verses mean then
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Nope. Calvin taught that.
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I guess I was assuming Gill and Spurgeon were following Calvin but I just want to use scripture I really don’t care what Calvin thinks unless it is proven from scripture Talking about Calvin doesn’t mean anything just use scripture. I interpreted John 3:3,5,8 if you disagree I’m ok with that
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A rose by any other name is still a rose!
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I just changed the color of the rose and the model of flower
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You are a calvinist for all intents and purposes.
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So how long have you known you were chosen? 2 yrs? 3 yrs?
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It has been many years what does that have to do with interpreting John 3:3,5,8 and all the other verses
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How long have you known you were chosen???
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I really can’t pinpoint but many years I have believed the Gospel of Grace
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5 yrs. 25 yrs?
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You admitted this to me months ago not years
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I admitted I was a calvinist yrs ago, in the 90’s. I told you this within the last few months.
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No you told me generation comes before belief but then i noticed you seem to write in opposition
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Nope. Never did. I was repeating your systematic theology to satisfy your desire to put a notch in your teaching score card.
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Isnt belief an effort on my part and therefore nullify gospel of grace. Again your theology teaches me I am without hope, hated by God and will suffer eternally unless I am regenerated by God.
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Yes, Gospel of Grace would nullify effort from man for salvation since the work of Christ is the only condition The Gospel of Grace is wonderful and simple The issue is why don’t you believe it?
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Believing is a work. I can’t believe because you have taught that I cant. Are you changing your teaching now???
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John 6:29 This is the work of God that you believe
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How is anyone going to see the kingdom of God and understand spiritual if not regenerated?
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Only the special chosen get to see the kingdom of God according to your teaching. All others are condemned to suffer eternally in the fire of hell.
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It is Gods work not man’s. You said belief was impossible until regenerated.
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Yes that is God’s work Didn’t John 6:29 point that out
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I really don’t want to be philosophical I think John 3:3,5,8 says you must be born from above to see ( believe the gospel) the kingdom of God Seeing is a spiritual thing which the natural man can’t see
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Does your church get you to teach?
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I don’t have a place where I have found an assembly that adheres to scripture to the point of acknowledging that God causes and controls all things including evil. Did Calvin believe that? The Bible says in Romans 9 that God makes unconditionally vessels of wrath fitted out for destruction to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known in order to show His riches on The vessels of mercy that He is unconditionally making to show the riches of His glory prepared beforehand.
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So you are in the most populous state in America, and I assume you are in a very large city, yet no other believers have been chosen as you have been chosen?
That must be very difficult!
You are a very special chosen one, to have such pure doctrine and everyone one else around you are either condemned sinners or heretics!
Come to think of it, it is amazing how you are able to “adhere to scripture”, and at the same time disobey God’s Word.
Hebrews 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
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There isn’t any sense in assembling with Mormons or The Watchtower; since we are not suppose to have fellowship with the doctrines of demons; so why would I assemble with the ones that believe in the free will god ( majority) that is in subjection to man’s will.
I’m able to fellowship with others outside my location. You should worry about the doctrine you believe and not violate Romans 10:1-4; exchanging zeal for doctrine. I’m not sure if this is completely in context for our time; but Jesus said when I come back will I find faith on the earth? Does that mean all these so called “believers” taking the name of “Christianity” are believing false doctrines and man centered doctrines and or including false gods, false Jesus’ false spirits.
Don’t worry about me worry about what you believe. God will complete the work in me that He has started. He promised to save His people. Doctrines centered on man’s free Will won’t save anyone no matter how many you assemble with of like mindedness.
I think we have beat this dead horse enough.
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Yes as soon as I touch a nerve, it is time to quit discussing.
I figured you would shy away from discussing anything else than your precious Romans 9. No matter – you are not assembling with others because you consider yourself better than them – Admit it – You have the pure doctrine and can not put up with any deviation from your theology from others. (Do I hear someone say “Pharisee”?)
You are a sectarian, and Paul states that this behavior is childish, immature and fleshly. Your claim that everyone else is worshipping false gods, spirits and doctrines is exposing your spirit of superiority and pride. Many cults have used this same accusation for their partisan teaching, and you are no different.
Can you get along with anyone without disputes and arguments – that is other than the tiny sliver of the pure chosen?
Your pride is sin and you need to repent of your attitude of arrogance.
Humble yourself, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you
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I already tried last night to get off this circular merry go round
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I have the impression your nerves are inflamed. My desire to be biblically systematic makes me a Pharisee 😂
It makes me childish to actually wanting to believe the Gospel of Grace. If I interpret John 3:3,5,8 as being an act of God; that makes me immature childish fleshly 😂 By me not agreeing with the free will god that can’t interfere with man’s decision for his christ, makes me prideful. 😂 I really think you are the one agitated. It is apparent now to my thick skull that we are not like minded.
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You can think that – I have no problem with your opinion of me.
We each need to examine our own lives and see the fruits of our beliefs.
You come off as childish immature and fleshly because you consider your belief to be the only one that is acceptable to God, and that all others who claim the name of Christ to be heretics.
The pharisees had a systematic biblical theology, but was systematically wrong.
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I don’t have an opinion other than you don’t agree with me and do not appear to be agreeable that John 3:3,5,8 is the beginning of God’s Sovereign Grace. If the scripture says in John 3:8 the spirit blows where it desires; that is a sovereign act. If Romans 9 says I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. That is a sovereign act. If John 6:37 says All that the Father gives to Jesus won’t be lost and will come. That is a sovereign act. If God says it is not be the Will of man but by my mercy That is a sovereign act. If God says He will shine into the heart the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ; that is a sovereign act. If God promises to save His people and none will be lost and He does all His desires; that is a sovereign act. Why do you penalize me for just adhering to the simple grammatical lay out of the simple meaning of the words.
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I am not penalizing you in any way. Your beliefs are your beliefs, but your attitude towards others is off putting, and reveals an attitude of arrogance.
Keep your beliefs. They are yours and you need to be convinced in your own mind
Your constant arguing seems to be telling me I’m not the only one you are trying to convince though.
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I have no attitude which to say I do is not appropriate considering you make no mention of the previous reference to the simple grammar and simple language of scripture. You sound like you want me to deny what the scripture is saying in lieu of you accusing me of being “ arrogant” as you state. To me that just sounds like an attack and a diversion from what the simple English grammar is saying in those scriptures. I cannot help standing on what it says and that does not make me arrogant. If you believe I’m arrogant because I don’t adhere to what you believe then that is on you not me.
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Ok. Your opinion is your opinion.
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Scripture says what it simply says
I better not have an opinion
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Your scripture says what you want it to say.
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Please tell me your interpretation of John 3:8 just for an example so I can compare please just one scripture
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No one asked you to believe what I believe. Golly ou have complained that I havent even defined exactly what I believe.
Your arrogance is assuming everyone else is wrong and going to hell.
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If I point out the simple English grammar and no one believes it; Do I say they do believe it? I know young kids that within 30 seconds give me the same simple understanding that I have when I read the simple English.
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We are supposed to believe scripture not agree with everyone that doesn’t want to see the simple English for what it is
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Believe all scripture, not just your take on Roman’s 9.
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You already know that Romans 9 is not used alone
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It is your go to passage along with john 3.
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I’m not sure what you mean but please interpret John 3:8 and feel free to use other scriptures
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No John 3:8 is not my go to passage it is the beginning of the process of a new creation in Christ
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Good to know that you believe the same thing young kids do.
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My point was the simpleness of the written word, the English grammar
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Children usually don’t have bias; like God must give me a Free Will otherwise I couldn’t be responsible
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I could say the same when I show a young child a verse speaking of Jesus being the saviour of the world. Unless they are trained to insert words they will understand
and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world
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Ok let’s get back to the simple please give me your understanding of John 3:8
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8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
The passage speaks of NOT knowing where it (the wind) comes from, and that being born of the Spirit is similar as to where it comes from and where it goes.
You seem to know.
Interesting how you have the secret mysteries, yet Jesus wouldn’t tell Nicodemus.
You truly are a superior chosen one
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John 3:8 (KJ3)
The Spirit breathes where He desires,….
What does that mean to you?
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Please use scripture that is acceptable to the body of Christ instead of one that caters to your sliver of belief.
The word can be translated wind or spirit. Still the same message.
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I’m more than willing; but I started here for a reason
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With John 3:8. I am curious if you see my previous comment as heretical
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Which comment as heretical?
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My response to john 3:8
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You appeared to skip over “ The Spirit breathes where He desires”
Nicodemus didn’t seem to understand even though Jesus was giving him scripture. The revealing of the Son and the Gospel is through the gift of the Father to the Son. Jesus knew this. I’m still not sure what would be heretical. It isn’t interesting or something that isn’t answered in Matthew 11:27
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You asked about John 3:8. The spirit breathes where He desires. The verse does not define what makes the object desirable to be breathed on by the Spirit. Just that the Spirit breathes where He desires. Nothing more.
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The verse isn’t even related to any objects or the objects desire or even defines a related object of reception
It strictly says The Spirit is sovereign because it blows where it desires to blow. Nothing is mentioned about anyone asking for the spirit or being desirably attractive to the spirit. It is only laying the ground that God’s spirit goes where it wants to. It establishes the sovereignty of God very plainly.
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I don’t see it. When you say sovereignty, I assume you mean absolute control over everything.
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All I can gather from “The Spirit breathes where it desires” is The Spirit goes where it desires
The Spirit is Sovereign nothing else directs where it goes
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So what is your point?
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The point is
“All I can gather from “The Spirit breathes where it desires” is The Spirit goes where it desires The Spirit is Sovereign; nothing else directs where it goes”
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That point is made on John 3:8
Please explain John 3:3 (KJ3)
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
Who is doing the generation from above and why would they need to do it? What does it mean to see the kingdom of God?
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John 3:3 ESV Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
This passage does not define the order of salvation, it simply states the condition to be able to see the kingdom of God, that is to be born again, or born from above. The verse does not address how to be born again, or who initiates the process or how the action is performed. It is the condition required to be able to see the kingdom of God.
You are inserting your theology into the text when it isn’t justified. Jesus was not, as far as I can tell, giving Nicodemus a treatise on the details of salvation.
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Who does the generation from above?
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This passage does not say who does the regeneration. As a matter of fact, it doesn’t even refer to regeneration, unless you are equating that with being born again. The passage simply states that it is necessary to be born again to see the kingdom of God. That is all it teaches.
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The passage does say who does the generation from above by way of the fact it says “from above” (not from below)
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Natural doesn’t ask for it. He thinks spiritual things are foolishness; so how would he get it if it wasn’t initiated by God sovereignly from above. He doesn’t see the kingdom of God and has no interest in it; so how would he become generated from above if God didn’t do it for him.
That is why I asked what does it mean to see the kingdom of God? What is your view on what it means to see the kingdom of God?
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But it doesn’t state that it is before faith
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If natural man does not have faith in the gospel and thinks it is foolishness and cannot discern or understand spiritual things then there is no way around regeneration not being a sovereign act of God. He is isn’t going to ask for the spirit.
It is impossible to deduct anything else from scripture whether we like it or not
Spiritually dead means not able to see the kingdom of God or have interest; then the Spirit would to breathe where it desires and to whom it desires. All do not see
I can’t and don’t see it any other way.
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That is your opinion. (Unless someone is indoctrinating you!)
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No opinion, it is in print in John 3:3,5,8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 among other supporting scripture.
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Your interpretation. There have been a number of assumptions you have made that are unwarranted by reading the text, but that is required to keep your theology plausible. It is your opinion.
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Just those scriptures alone line out the logic and complement each other and one forces the other interpretation of the other; but I understand your position. If natural man is dead spiritually, someone has to make him alive. I’m convinced; but you aren’t, so we can conclude in opposite views
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Here is the scriptural flow without utilizing any other scriptures other than John 3:3,5,8 and
1 Corinthians 2:14
Natural man won’t accept spiritual things; that includes the things true from the Holy Spirit, He can’t. They are spiritually discerned. It takes the spirit to understand spiritual things.
1 Corinthians 2:14
He is not able. Someone outside of himself must make him spiritually alive in order to make him able to see the kingdom of God John 3:3,5,8
God’s Spirit breathes where He desires; so in order for a natural man to see the kingdom of God and be saved, God’s spirit must breathe on him. John 3:3,5,8
We know phenomenologically that not all see the kingdom of God; therefore not all receive the breath of the spirit. There are a lot of people that don’t have the spirit and consequently do not see the kingdom of God
There are plenty of other scriptures that support these scriptures demonstrating God’s sovereignty in salvation; but they aren’t even needed.
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Too many assumptions for me. Not convincing in the least.
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What is phenomenologically mean???
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What we see with our senses
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Or hear
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I am becoming convinced you are being fed this teaching by someone. You should read the passages again without your calvinist glasses.
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Carl, please give me a Carlism’s approach to understanding those scriptures. I’m tired of giving you mine
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What is your first name?
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You must have taken a class on how to divert the conversation I hated those classes. It is all about deception
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I will answer but it may not be till tonight. Got to get to work this morning
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Let us go back to the original point that we diverted from finalizing. This is my original interpretation which is in conflict with your understanding of John 6:65
You disagree and that is fine. These are my words of interpretation; not anyone elses
“John 6:64
“But there are some of you who are not believing”………………………. John 6:65 ……….. no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
True Belief (Faith )comes to Jesus automatically because false faith or belief doesn’t come and can’t come to the true Jesus. I would like to add generation from God with a new spirit has to take place in order to (believe and come) all in one
Jesus said no one is able to come (believe) unless it has been granted or given by The Father
The Greek word shown above that is used in John 6:65 gives no room for enabling. What is given by the Father is belief; consequently faith that comes to Jesus because faith without moving to Jesus is dead and not faith
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Are you willing to supply your name? I will get to your question tonite.
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Hey. Remind which verses you are asking about. Is it john 3?
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I just remembered all you said about my interpretation of John 6:64-65 was “it was just my opinion”. Opinion means there is no scriptural basis
It is plainly stated by Jesus and I figured if that is all you can say about John 6:65 , we are going to end up nowhere with John 3:3,5,8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 It will end up your interpretation versus mine based on your distortion of natural man’s (not true) ability to Free Will his way to God versus my view or understanding of God’s complete control over man’s will
The Spirit breathes where it desires (Sovereignty) John 3:8 That means God chooses where to go and to whom
Natural man won’t ask for spiritual things he isn’t by nature acclimated (Spiritually empty) So he definitely isn’t making the difference in coming
So God draws (Drags) by breathing His spirit into the unconditionally chosen vessel to soften his God hating heart and he comes because he has faith, once generated, from above ( All don’t have faith and come)
These unconditionally chosen vessels are the changed natural men given to Jesus that can’t be lost because God always fulfills His desires and these are His sheep that He promised to save
Matthew 1:21 John 6:37-44 Romans 9 and Romans 8 Romans 10, Romans 11 etc etc
How can you disturb the force? ( scripture) just to use a demonic phrase from the demonic influenced Star Wars movies
I’m getting tired of playing written verbal volleyball 🏐 We just don’t believe in the same God. I hope your readers at least see that much.
God saves conditioned solely on Christ and the natural man won’t come because he is spiritually dead; so God has to get the glory and will get the glory because He knew exactly who Jesus died for before creation, His Sheep, that hear His voice. Why do they hear His voice because God made them spiritually alive. Nothing more nothing less.
The only desired point I have ever wanted to make was we don’t believe in the same God. We don’t believe the same Gospel.
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Hey let me know which verse or set of verses you are referring to when you ask for a carlism.
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I guess all of them 1 Corinthians 2:14 and John 3:8 to start with
I guess all of them to start with John 3:8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 please use them both in your interpretation as a unit
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Hey – Just got off work and wanted to get back to you on the passages you are speaking of.
I provided a post on Sept 9th on the 1 Corinthians 2:14 passage.
I also provided a post on Aug 5th, for the John 3:3-8 passage
Regarding using them “as a unit”, I think contexts of each passage needs to be considered in trying to understand the original intent of the message, and combining two passages with different audiences, speakers, contexts etc. can introduce a mix message.
Still not sure what your name is, so I will start calling you “AJ the Calvin man”!?
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I will read it once again; concerning context I agree but we are to use scripture to interpret scripture We have 66 books just call me Double AJ
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Ok Double AJ. Nice to meet ya!
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Thanks, I don’t think you sleep anymore than I do
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It will take me awhile to wade through 1 Corinthians 1 and 2: and into the context of the first part of chapter 3 to develop and build into the meaning of and my understanding of
1 Corinthians 2:14
I want to study what you wrote on your post regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14
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Appreciate your willingness to consider my thoughts
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I need to ask a question related to the reason the post was created relating to the issue of the interpretation of
1 Corinthians 2:14 Is your view “ the natural man” is not unregenerate; just immature? I’m assuming the alternative view of the interpretation of “The Natural Man” is that he is unregenerate. Do I have the conflicting views correctly assessed?
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Hey Double AJ – good question and thanks for going through the post and picking up on this. I understand the natural/old man (also referred to as “the flesh” I think) to be unregenerate. At the point of salvation the Spirit of God takes up residence in our corporate (1 Cor 3:16) and personal life (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20) and a battle begins (Galatians 6:8). Although in the passage of 1 Cor 2, I believe Paul is specifically discussing the Corinthians immaturity (1 Cor 3:1-3), I also think that all believers battle with the natural/old man until the point of death. The natural/old man is a selfish, self centered and self loving life (1 John 2:16) that believers need to reject by focusing on the Spirits leading and empowerment.
Consider the verses I have referred to above (I have added below), check out their context and let me know your thoughts.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
1 Corinthians 6:20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world–the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life–is not from the Father but is from the world.
1 Corinthians 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
1 Corinthians 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
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Wow, you have a lot there which we can surely discuss; but I wanted see if I could confirm that your original dispute with the interpretation that prompted the post in reference to
1 Corinthians 2:14 was that “ The Natural Man” was referred to as an unregenerate person, or in other words unsaved person and one that did not believe the Gospel; but in your understanding of that scripture it only pointed to just an immature christian.
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In this passage I think Paul is considering these believers as babes, immature believers exhibiting natural man characteristics. Since he started epistle stating they were saints chpt 1, I seen these as regenerated folks that are immature.
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Yes, I agree, The Apostle Paul refers to “babes”in Christ as “ fleshy” but he tells us what the reason for describing them as “fleshy” is in
1 Corinthians 1:10-15 and 1 Corinthians 3:1-22
They didn’t seem to realize that if God sends a teacher or preacher of the Gospel of Christ, they will all be teaching the same essential Gospel doctrine; meaning, there would be no reason that they (be)puffed up one against the other.
1 Corinthians 4:6
The Apostle Paul also seems to be comparing and contrasting the spirit of the world and the spirit of God.
In 1 Corinthians 2:12 The Apostle starts by saying “ We have not received the spirit of the world”, “but the Spirit from God” ( That must be a regenerate man)
In 1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things we also speak, not in words taught in human wisdom, but in words taught of the Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. ( a regenerate man)
Then in
1 Corinthians 2:14 he compares and describes a a Natural man (an unregenerate person) to contrast to the spiritual man (regenerate man) in verse 12
1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Why does this natural man have a problem? It is because he hasn’t been generated from above by God and his father is still the devil. He is not able to know them.
His thoughts are still blinded by the god of this age 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (to the Gospel of Christ) and God has not shined the knowledge into their hearts the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6
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Are you saying that upon the point of salvation, there is no “natural man” in the believer? Are you proposing the eradication of the sin nature and sinless perfection of the saint?
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Please let me rephrase what you termed as “natural man”The new creation in Christ still has his flesh to deal with; but as a new creation in Christ He will and has to believe certain essential Gospel doctrines and no longer practice sin.
The new creation is no longer dominated by the flesh. He is not in the flesh.
He is not a natural man; not accepting the things of the spirit; but a new creation
But, if you notice in 1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And in 1 Corinthians 1:18 they both think spiritual things are foolishness; in other words the essential Gospel doctrines are foolishness. They are perishing.
For the Word of the cross is foolishness to the ones perishing, but to us being saved it is the power of God.
The Natural man has not received regeneration through John 3:3,5,8 and
2 Corinthians 4:6
Because it is God who said, “Out of darkness Light shall shine,” the One who shone in our hearts to give the illumina- tion of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Isa. 42:6, 7, 16
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In reference to your verse listed 1 John 2:16
1 John 2:16
16 because everything in the world: the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
When these 2 verses 1 John 2:15-16 brought together
1 John 2:15
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
It appears these 2 verses above taken together show the person that loves the world through the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not regenerate since the love of the Father is not in him.
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In reference to
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Romans 8: 9-17
But you are not in the flesh ,but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.
10¶But if Christ is in you,the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
12 So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
13 for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you received not a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!
16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.
17 ¶ And if children, also heirs; truly heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
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I’m an ol man if you know what I mean….
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Me too
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“Generated from above “ means from God who is above Natural Man cannot regenerate himself Yes, “born again” equates to being regenerated or generated from above So I disagree with you saying the scripture meaning is indeterminate or lacking information
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Who is doing the generation from above and What does it mean to see the kingdom of God? Why would anyone need generation from above to see the kingdom of God?
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Both good questions, but the answers are not found in this passage. You are asking question the passage is not intended to address, unless you have been taught to find it in the verse somehow.
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John 3:8 “The spirit breathes where it desires” says it all “ I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy” I will harden whom I will harden, All that the Father gives will come, I kill, I make alive, I wound, I heal, I make vessels fitted out for destruction, I raised up Pharaoh to show my wrath and make my power known, I declare the end from the beginning, He turns kings hearts wherever He desires, I will do all my desire, His word will prosper for that which He sent it. He turn their hearts to hate His people etc etc etc
What more do we need to say about man’s will ?
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It does define the first step in salvation You must be “generated from above” to see or to use another scripture be made alive or be given by the Father or drawn by the Father “from above” means from God since we are below plus the Spirit breathes where it desires irrespective of any desire or attraction from any outside force; otherwise no need to reference wherever “The Spirit breathes where it desires”Natural man cannot ask for it to come because he has no desire and doesn’t understand spiritual things or his need. So, generation has to be initiated by God alone since it goes where He desires and natural man doesn’t have a clue. plus in Romans 9:16 we see God’s actions are irrespective of man’s willing or running; but by His mercy; so We don’t need to define a desirable object, there aren’t any.
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I thought I answered this; but in case I didn’t “ The Spirit breathes where it desires” It doesn’t say that we need to define what makes an object desirable to breathe on or into.
In fact, God says He unconditionally chooses where to go for His purpose according to the counsel of His Will if I might use another scripture in Romans 9 You added the idea that we might consider “ what makes an object desirable” God chose Israel unconditionally there was nothing desirable in them according to my understanding of scripture.
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Listen. If you ever want to discuss the Bible instead of trying to indoctrinate me, I would love to interact. I would esp enjoy talking to you on a phone call. If this appeals to you let me know.
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You refuse to answer the question of being chosen? You must be chosen since you have the pure doctrine. Why not admit you are one of the chosen?
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I only know I believe the Gospel of Grace alone…..
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You are chosen by your own definition of a Christian. You truly are the best, and must be very righteous!
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I’m not righteous Jesus Christ is the only righteous one
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But you are chosen. And God loves you. He hates me, doesn’t He?
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I already explained from scripture He that believes the Gospel is not condemned. God commands all to repent from believing the false
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But the nat man cant. You said it yourself. Only the chosen. God commands but unless chosen and regenerated the command falls on dead / deaf ears.
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The natural man has no interest in coming to the true God That is true He thinks spiritual things are foolishness
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The doctrine of The Gospel of Grace is pure and simple. Simple enough for all to understand Salvation is conditioned solely on Jesus Christ’s atoning blood and his perfect imputed righteousness. God is able to generate from above whether you are in the womb or outside the womb. God is able to shine into the heart the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. When a regenerated person hears the Gospel of Grace, he will believe it. Nothing more needs to be said.
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I’m using scripture to demonstrate the Gospel of Grace from scripture I have said nothing about me being chosen
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But you are one of the chosen. You have the truth and anyone who disagrees with you is a heretic.
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How do you know I’m one of the chosen you don’t believe the Gospel of Grace alone ?
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Are you not a chosen?
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You believe you represent perfectly all truth
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I believe God has spoken and I preach the Gospel according to the prophets, Jesus and His apostles. All other gospels are false, and all other Jesus’ are false.
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I can say the same
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You believe judgement triumphs over mercy
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Jesus didn’t pay effectually for the sins of every single person because not every single person is saved.
God was and is omniscient; so it is foolish to think He paid for the sins of those that end up in hell.
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There is the judgement of the vessels of wrath fitted out for destruction in order to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known in order to show the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy prepared from beforehand
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13For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
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Of course it does because the elect would be judged if not for mervy
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Nothing about the elect in this verse. There you go again inserting you theology whenever it is required.
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20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
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Look further down after Colossians 1:20 at Colossians 1:22-23
These 2 verses give further clarification of the term reconciling all things. It doesn’t appear to generate a universalist meaning of salvation
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I was re-reading the posts and having a hard time finding and keeping in sync and answering. Your statement quoted above and below gives me the impression you think Jesus Christ paid for the sins of every individual without exception ;but when just before he gave up the spirit on the cross He said “ it is finished” or in other words paid in full. Is there more work to be done?
Could it actually mean He is not a respecter of persons in John 3:16 and actually died and paid for the sins of the whole world; Jew and Gentile from every nation, even tribes, peoples and languages. We know he didn’t pay in full everyone’s sins since some are and will be in Hell. Revelation 7:9 Revelation 20:15
“The gospel if grace that provides a suffering Savior to die for the whole world? Yes I believe that”
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So, Jesus paid and atoned for every individuals sins; but yet He didn’t actually secure the salvation of anyone for whom He died and bought with a price; meaning he didn’t provide propitiation, redemption and justification at the time of His death for His people chosen from before the foundation of the world?
Did He pay for everyone; but was guaranteed nothing? It sounds like His atoning blood wasn’t effectual for everyone that has ever lived is living and will live.
Doesn’t John 6:37-44 sound like The Trinity is In synchronization?The Father chose a certain number from every nation even tribes, peoples and language and The Father Son Spirit being God knew who they were?These verses say The Father gives to Jesus and The ones He gives won’t be lost. The Father gives a certain number of people. In this false doctrine, The Son dies for everyone; but secured the redemption of no one and The spirit regenerates the ones The Father gives. The Trinity looks like it is disjointed in knowledge with this doctrine?
So, was it a shot in the dark on whether He would be able to fulfill the promise of saving His people in this false doctrine of a salvation dependent on the sinner? Matthew 1:21
Why would anyone believe this confusing disjointed doctrine and false gospel?
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Love is risky
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If you don’t love the biblical God and love another that doesn’t cause and control all things and who can’t fulfill His promises to save His people, that is very risky.
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Would you admit to love is to risk?
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Yes, but it is all in vain if you love a god with different attributes than the attributes of the Biblical God. We can’t give attributes to God that don’t apply and take away ones that He does have.
John 17:3 says you must know the true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent because this is everlasting life otherwise 2 Corinthians 11:4 would have never mentioned the possibility of a different Jesus, different spirit etc or Galatians 1:8 another gospel.
God is God. He knows who is saving and knew it from before the foundation of the world. Jesus only died for those the Father gives Him that He chose unconditionally from before the foundation of the world.
It can be no other way.
We are commanded to believe the Gospel of Grace, The Truth. Salvation is all of God none of man
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If God is love, and love, by it’s very nature is risky, then God must be taking some risks.
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You boil love down to a concept relating to finite fallen man
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Did not the Savior use human understanding to teach of God. Consider john 3
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Sure, He uses metaphors; but he is not a man that he should lie. Numbers 23:9
Therefore, natural man cannot love being evil; since he lies. Only the Spirit of God can love. Not all have the spirit. How does one get the spirit?
John 6:64
But there are some of you who are not believing ( coming). For Jesus knew from the beginning who they are, the ones not believing, (coming) ……….
John 6:65
And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come ( believing ) to Me if it is not given( the ability through being generated from above through the gift of the Spirit)to him from My Father.
That includes no one is able to love; since only the spirit can love; since only God is good and only God is love and He only gives this love of God to the Children of Promise through His Spirit. We love Him because He first loved us ( The children of Promise)
You must be given that attribute to love God. Natural man doesn’t have it as Jesus said
Luke 11:13
Then if you being evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father out of Heaven will give the Holy Spirit to the ones asking Him.
No Natural Man asks for the spirit unless drawn to the True and living God controlling all things. He thinks spiritual things are foolishness. If he thinks he can love by his definition he won’t ask because he doesn’t need to ask he has the ability but it is not true love.
John 6:44
No one is able to come (believing) to Me if not the Father, the One having sent Me, draws (drags) him, and I will raise him up in the last day
The Love of The True God is a gift through the gift of the spirit of God. Not all have the Spirit of God dwelling in them; therefore all will not have the love of God.
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You seem to make exceptions to any questions and simply make statements in order to justify your teaching.
Consider Luke 11:13, where the Messiah is speaking of the Father giving the Spirit to those who ask Him. According to your teaching, the Spirit isn’t given by request, but by a predetermined decision of the counsel of God before anything was created. So, according to your teaching, the Father regenerates the dead sinner by giving him the Spirit of God, and then the regenerated sinner is offered the opportunity of asking the Father for the Spirit. I’m sorry, but it is just so confusing!
BTW, I am not sure where Jesus said the natural man doesn’t have it. (Unless you meant Paul? Paul said it in 1 Cor 3, right?)
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Didn’t I say the natural man doesn’t ask because he thinks he doesn’t need to ask because he was born with the capacity to love as the Father does?
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Not sure what all that means
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And what father of you, if the son asks for bread, will he give him a stone? And if a fish, will he give him a snake instead of a fish?
12 And if he should ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion?
13 Then if you being evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father out of Heaven will give the Holy Spirit to the ones asking Him.
Please notice Jesus says The Father not your Father
God says you being evil know how to give bread to his children instead of a stone.
Do you really think someone evil has the ability to love in the type of love that comes from “God is love?” Natural man thinks spiritual things are foolishness. He thinks he is self sufficient. He doesn’t understand. Is He going to ask for something he can’t even comprehend? Do you actually think the descendants of Adam spiritually died in the Garden of Eden? God said “ Dying you shall die” What does that mean to you? We all became liars and need the spirit of God It is God’s work that you believe He has to work it
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Too many questions. What is your point?
Luke 11 speaks of comparative love. Jesus uses an earthly example of what aN earthly father would not do, to emphasize the willingness of the Father in giving the Spirit.
Btw, if the Father regenerates the sinner, why does Jesus tell His disciples to ask the Father for the Spirit. Doesn’t regeneration mean the sinner gets the Spirit of God?
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Give me the scripture
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I referred to Luke 11 in the previous comment.
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These verses are clearer and to the point of supporting faith as a gift from the Father to the ones given to Jesus; which is where the original discussion started
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This is your belief
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It sure appears to be what the scripture is plainly saying.
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Sure, whatever you want to believe is what you believe.
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Here is The proof that faith is a gift from the Father to whom He gives to Jesus. The work of God.
John 6:64
But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they are, the ones not believing, ……….
John 6:65
And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come ( believing) to Me if it (belief) is not given to him from My Father.
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Here is more proof that faith is a gift from The Father to the ones given to Jesus
John 6:36
But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe (come).
John 6:37
All who the Father gives to Me shall come(believing) to Me, and the one coming (believing)to Me I will not cast out, not ever,
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You are inserting the word “belief” as the “it” in verse 65. I have addressed this specific issue in the following blog – Refer to
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You distorted the explanation of the post by the unintentional incorrect synonym for “granted” ( ESV) as being “enabled” The correct synonym for “granted”is “given” (KJ3) or (KJV) demonstrated by the Bible translations
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Again this is your interpretation, and I appreciate your viewpoint
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Who said He us lying,??
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What?
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God’s love by nature isn’t risky
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That is your belief
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Is God risking His love? It sounds like you are presenting a question with an unknown?
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To love someone involved risk.
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Risk of what?
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So you believe in original sin?
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Just answer the question!!
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If original sin equates to “ Dying you shall die” Yes, I believe in original sin. Adam’s descendants and or who he represented are spiritually dead to the true God ending in physical death and the 2nd death if not generated from above by the sovereign will and mercy of God
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What does “dying you shall die” have to do with that? Adam was told he would die. Not suffer eternally in hell, nor that his offspring would suffer in hell eternally. You are so very unclear.
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The wages of sin is death without regeneration you experience the 2nd death Revelation 20
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And when you refer to the truth of the gospel you are referring to your truth I assume.
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Use scripture when you write
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Back to your Luke 11 question
“ Luke 11 speaks of comparative love. Jesus uses an earthly example of what aN earthly father would not do, to emphasize the willingness of the Father in giving the Spirit.
Btw, if the Father regenerates the sinner, why does Jesus tell His disciples to ask the Father for the Spirit. Doesn’t regeneration mean the sinner gets the Spirit of God?”
The disciples were already generated from above John 3:3,5,8 and believed the gospel Jesus is also talking to the Pharisees in Luke chapter 11
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That is your belief.
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If they were already regenerated, what was it that happened at pentecost? Reregenerated?
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The power of God, the spirit of God given for service was the main reason at Pentecost and I’m not saying some weren’t regenerated during that period. I’m sure there were
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But you said the disciples were regenerated during John 3 right?
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No
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If so this question makes no sense
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We just believe in 2 different God’s with different attributes which brings us once again back to the beginning of our interaction.
You believe God created man with a will that God can’t interfere with and I believe God is totally Sovereign and Totally in control of all thoughts and actions. I pray to a Biblical God that saves all by himself and you pray to a god that cannot save.
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This is what you have concluded about my belief. You are settled in your convictions about my belief. You have stated numerous times what you think I believe. I have written multiple posts on my belief but you assign
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your understanding to my faith. So be it.
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Don’t You believe natural man has the inherent ability to believe the truth of the Gospel without generation?
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You mean regeneration I assume
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Well John 3:3,5,8 says generated from above so I thought I would use the same would “ generate”
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Didn’t You say God doesn’t force anyone to be saved or He doesn’t force His life (spirit) on anyone ? Didn’t you say God didn’t harden Pharaoh’s heart, Pharaoh hardened his own heart? If this isn’t your position, please correct my understanding of what I read or heard.
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The first few plagues, I recall the text saying Pharoah hardened his heart. Later the text states God hardened his heart.
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Exodus 4:21 says YHWH will harden Pharaoh’s heart. You don’t believe that YHWH will harden Pharaoh’s heart?
Exodus 4:21 is the first scripture that mentions how Pharaoh’s heart will be hardened; therefore YHWH is doing the hardening and any reference to Pharaoh hardening his own heart is the fruit of YHWH hardening his heart.
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Double AJ – Your comment is almost correct. I think you have missed the tense of the verb, where God is stating He WILL harden Pharaoh’s heart (that is, in the future)
The first passage that states that God hardens Pharaohs heart is found in Exo 9:12
Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
Prior to this, a number of verses declare that Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.
Exodus 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. (Note that this actually happened after God’s initial action on Pharaoh.
It is true that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but the flow of the story shows it was a continuation of a process began by a man. Pharaoh began the process. God finished it, after the trend became evident, ie that Pharaoh made consistent decisions to refuse God’s commands.
Be careful when you are reading a passage for what it is saying and what it is not saying.
Would you not agree of the tragedy of a man beginning a process that gets out of control. Pharaoh, by his own free will, hardened his heart and lost the ability to exercise his free will when God continued the action. This story teaches us that men and women are not born hardened to God, but that it is a process that we decide to pursue. After all, how could Pharaoh harden his own heart if it was already hardened.
That is simply too confusing, and IMHO, not supported by the Word.
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Of course, it is future He talked to Moses prior to the event !
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So what was your point in sharing that verse?
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The scripture says YHWH hardened Pharaoh’s heart and caused him to sin
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So you believe God is the author of sin?
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Depends on what you mean by author.
God does not commit the sin that He causes; therefore, He would not be the author of the sin committed by the sinner.
But, If you say that He is the author of sin because He causes sin; but does not commit the sin himself, then yes, He is the author.
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That is fine sidestepping. So God causes sin? But God is not the author of sin?
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If you define author because He causes sin, then,Yes, He is the author of the sin he causes
Psalm 105:25 and Isaiah 45:7
¶ He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants
Isaiah 45:7
forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all thse things
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YHWH hardened Pharaoh’s heart to sin
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Exodus 4:21 KJ3
And Jehovah said to Moses, As you go to return to Egypt, see all the wonders which I have put in your hand, and do them before Pharaoh. And I will make strong his heart, and he will not send the people away.
YHWH said this before the future event started, so of course it is future He is telling Moses what He will do in the future.
I will make his heart hard (strong)
The future was fixed when YHWH said prior what He will do. YHWH will do this.
YHWH raised Pharaoh up desiring to show forth His power and display His wrath so that His name might be publicized in all the earth in order to make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory.
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It is confusing to you because you can’t accept God controlled Pharaoh and made him sin.
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I never said you need to continue to pray for me I said if you do pray for me you are praying in vain because you are praying to a god that cannot save because you believe He can’t interfere with my will to be saved or not be saved without justifiably holding me responsible for not coming to Christ.
It is stupid to pray to a god for the salvation of someone that He can’t save. So, please don’t tell me you are going to pray for me for anything since we don’t believe in the same God. Hopefully that makes sense to you.
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If God is omniscient, He is omniscient before creation; consequently, everything is set in stone prior to creation since he can declare the end from the beginning. You are not free from God to a point where He doesn’t know anything about you. He knows everything otherwise He isn’t God, you are. So, the best you can do is ask as an objector, is “ who can resist His will ?” And “Why did you make me like this? Romans 9
It is so amazing to me that you think you have free will and at the same time you are fine without not knowing why some are saved and others are not saved.
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No one experiences the Love of God without being given the Holy Spirit by His sovereign will John 3:3,5,8 and being one of His elect. I could list all the scripture but doing that before didn’t seem to penetrate your thoughts
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Romans 10:1-4 demonstrates biblically from scripture that The Apostle Paul judged these Israelites to be lost and by praying to God for their salvation proved that God is in total control of who and when salvation takes place. It is plainly written
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I told you when you acknowledge God’s total control over salvation in praying for the salvation of another you are acknowledging the True God and His attributes. That glorifies God.
We do not know who the elect are; so we pray for those judged, as Paul did, for their salvation. Is that hard to understand for you?
Since you pray for God to give me the experience of “His love “, you are praying for Him to take control and change me. No one experiences the Love of God ( The belief of the Gospel) without being changed and saved.
So, please don’t tell me your free Will kicks in upon that experience.
Please tell me in plain language and confirm you are praying to a God that can save an unwilling person that has no interest in the Gospel of Christ or the truth and that God can save without any effort from the one He shows mercy; which means He, God of all creation, can save an unknowing and unwilling elect sinner.
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Neither did you answer the question or make the response succinct.
You did make unsubstantiated claims and prove that I need to continue to pray for you, that you would come to experience the love of God, and not simply a theological system.
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If I experience, hypothetically, taking for granted you say I haven’t yet experienced the love of God yet, if after you pray and I realize that He died, suffered and paid for my sins and I can’t contribute anything to my salvation; but that my salvation is conditioned solely on Jesus’ work and person as my substitute and I realize that Jesus will not lose anyone the father has given Him, who would I contribute this origin of regeneration or belief to, would it be your prayer, the Father, or my will?
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Good question. Could it be the word of God? Roman’s 10:17
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Of course; but the question is directing at the origin of a changed heart
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I will answer you with a short succinct answer; but please note, once again, you did not answer and answer biblically my biblical question or questions in the previous comment.
When a person that acknowledges God’s Sovereign Grace and Total Control over who is saved and the point in time when they are saved, referenced for an example in Romans 10:1-4, we glorify God’s biblical attributes.
God determines and controls all things; we don’t. We acknowledge that and we don’t know what is determined beforehand, only God does; and in acknowledging that, we also know from scripture, God also ordains the means as well as the ends.
When a free will advocate, one who believes that God can’t interfere with man’s will to be saved or not be saved because he wouldn’t be able to hold man responsible if he did interfere, actually prays to a god that cannot save, He is showing himself to be a hypocrite and one that is unbiblical. So, you would be very plainly be praying in vain if you prayed for me.
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John 6:64
“But there are some of you who are not believing”……………………….
John 6:65
……….. no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
True Belief (Faith )comes to Jesus automatically because false faith or belief doesn’t come and can’t come to the true Jesus
Jesus said no one is able to come (believe) unless it has been granted or given by The Father
The Greek word shown above that is used in John 6:65 gives no room for enabling. What is given by the Father is belief; consequently faith that comes to Jesus
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That is your belief. Thanks for sharing your understanding.
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You are welcome !
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Still praying that you would experience the love of God in a very real way.
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I can obviously say the same; otherwise, I would have given up. I have been told by at least 3 people of like minded understanding of scripture to let you go; but when I seen how you handled the most recent post; I, once again, thought you might see the simple.
My rule has been to let scripture be the guide to my belief; not the other way around. The Bible is systematic.
I can tell you from scripture God has to generate into a natural man a new creation by His sovereign Will to have mercy.
You can’t answer how one comes to believe; yet the scriptures answers.
I can’t believe God didn’t determine all things before creation because the Bible says He did determine all things before creation.
Unconditional election was a joyous revelation upon regeneration for me. I love God being in control; knowing I can never be lost. I trust in a righteous God who died for me and I know I’m in agreement with scripture.
He loved Jacob before he had done anything good or bad which means before creation. He hated Esau before He had done anything good or bad before creation.
God has the right to form vessels at His discretion. He is God. He is Omniscient. He can only act unconditionally because He is omniscient.
He is molding vessels for His glory and for the benefit of His elect to show the riches of His glory upon those vessels of mercy.
I have answers to my faith; you don’t. Salvation is by grace and if man’s effort has anything to do with salvation; it is not by grace according to scripture.
If you can tell me how one believes and another doesn’t and how the one that believes wouldn’t have a right to boast about it, since God didn’t supply the gift of faith; then I will listen; but you can’t.
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Why would you pray. All things are determined before the foundation of the world!
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“Why would you pray. All things are determined before the foundation of the world!”
Another answer would be –
God said to pray! and we don’t know what is determined beforehand and since God is molding vessels by His hand, He has ordained the means as well as the end all to His glory. He works the willing and the doing for His good pleasure and we consequently move in accordance.
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Sorry, Granted does not mean enabled
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My apologies. Granted may mean enabled
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I went searching for your belief that “ Granted may mean enabled” I never found it
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I think it was in vines
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I bought a copy of a Vines Dictionary the Greek word 1325 used for “ granted “ in John 6:65 in the (ESV )means “ to give” I don’t see anything in any part of the definition that can be construed as “enabled”
John 6:65 (KJ3)
And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
Jesus said this because in verse 64 He said “but there are some of you that are not believing” …..verse 65 “no one is able to (believe) come to Me if it ( belief) is not given to him from My Father”
Ability = believe = come
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“Lets consider the action of the Father in this verse. The one coming is granted by the Father. It seemed a funny word to use in this translation, but after reviewing some study books, found it is synonymous with “enabled”. The same idea of the Father enabling the one coming is similar in our previous post on John 6:44”
“Granted” does mean “ enabled”
John 6:65 (KJ3) Literal translation
And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
English Standard Version
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Greek interlinear
“Have been granted” ( Given)
1325. didómi ►
Strong’s Concordance
didómi: to give (in various senses lit. or fig.)
Original Word: δίδωμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: didómi
Phonetic Spelling: (did’-o-mee)
Definition: to give
Usage: I offer, give; I put, place.
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John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they are, the ones not believing, and who is the one giving Him over.
65 And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
Please notice in verse 65 “no one is able to come to Me” equates to “some of you are not believing “ because the ability to come through believing has not been “given” from My Father in verse 64
“Not believing” equals “ not given” from my Father
See: John 3:3,5,8
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