Calvinism · Doctrinal · Interpretation

Calvin’s Concerns – Comment Response 9 – John 6:65

As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.

This is the second portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.

Original Comment

Scripture says God is sovereign in his decision to whom he will have mercy which is in accordance with Romans 9:16 and other scripture Romans 9:15,18 The natural man doesn’t come and can’t come 1 Corinthians 2:14 John 6:44 John 6:65 He doesn’t have the ability because he lacks spiritual discernment because he doesn’t have the spirit.

This is another favorite verse of the theologically deterministic thinking folks, Calvin’s disciples that is.

John 6:65 – And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Why? Why did Jesus tell them that no man can come to Him unless it is granted him by the Father? Let’s take a few moments to check the context.

John 6:60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
John 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?
John 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jesus had just finished teaching a hard saying, that is that He was the bread of Life. In verse 51, Jesus equates Himself with the true manna, and instructs those who would live forever to eat of this bread. This is a very very hard saying for a good Jew to understand, since it may imply cannibalism.

Fun with words: cannibal - languagePRO

Of course the Lord meant it spiritually, and this was a genius move on the Lords method of winnowing out the ones who were simply following for the wrong reasons.

Are you following for the sake of the food (and miracles)? Or are you following because I am the true Deliverer, even if my message seems hard or difficult?

The Jews were in a tizzy, taking the message literally.

There are two audiences in this passage – the literalists – those who question the ability to eat of the Messiah’s actual flesh (WOW) and those who understand the message as a symbolic or spiritual message. Note that verse 60 opens the immediate context, where the disciples speak of the “hard saying” The message is the topic!

Jesus responds, asking if they are going to take offence at the message. After the bread message, Jesus actually warns them of more difficult saying that will be coming, such as in verse 62, speaking of His ascension. Things weren’t going to get easier for those who sought to follow Him!

Verse 63 is a defining verse. My very first preaching in a church was based on this passage, and looking back, I had it all messed up. Nevertheless, my understanding now is as follows.

  • The Spirit gives life. (The Spirit doesn’t force life)
  • The flesh is no help (Eating the body of the Messiah is not the message!)
  • The words that Jesus spoke are spirit and life. Jesus, in giving the message, was providing the spirit of the message and was the method the Father was using to bring men to the Messiah and life.

Now to our supposed proof passage.

.. “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jesus is speaking of the reception of the words He provides to the masses, not of some secret mysterious will that is conjured up in the minds of some theologians.

Lets consider the action of the Father in this verse. The one coming is granted by the Father. It seemed a funny word to use in this translation, but after reviewing some study books, found it is synonymous with “enabled”. The same idea of the Father enabling the one coming is similar in our previous post on John 6:44.

Enable / Compel

There is a difference.

To be enabled does not equate with to be compelled. I can enable my children to attend a function by inviting them, providing times and addresses and durations for the event. Many may come, but one may not come. Enabling my child to attend does not compel them, or force them to come to the function.

So lets wrap up some of our thoughts. The words of Jesus are the focus, and the words of Jesus include the enabling of those coming. Peter admitted to understanding this when challenged if they will leave the Messiah. He answered – “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

The gospel is the invitation. The words of Jesus is the life giving message. The message was believed, and Peter (along with most of the remaining disciples) knew that Jesus was the Holy One of God. This belief was a result of hearing the message Jesus preached and taught.

As an aside, for my friends who are leaning in the deterministic camp, consider that Jesus chose Judas (vs 6:70), yet was the very one that betrayed the Lord, that fell from grace. That is if he ever walked in grace at all! How is it that the one chosen should be the one who betrays? This is confusing if the choices were made before the foundation of the world!

I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.



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Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.


297 thoughts on “Calvin’s Concerns – Comment Response 9 – John 6:65

  1. It’s a mystery as we are spiritually dead and cannot save ourselves. And Jesus taught both that God desires all to be saved yet Jesus could only bring those to Himself that the Father calls. The important part Sur is that people need to hear the gospel to be awakened.

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      1. Sure. We are all born devoid of the Spirit of life, ie. without the Holy Spirit of God. When we confess our sins & give our lives to Christ, the Holy Spirit inhabits us and makes us alive spiritually. I wasn’t raised Christian so never knew about this till became born again.

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  2. This just struck me funny you unnecessarily put on me the label of “Calvinist” when I use my own words to comment; but you keep dumping Leighton Flowers videos on your blog 😂 I haven’t labeled you a Leightonist 😂

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  3. The point is
    “All I can gather from “The Spirit breathes where it desires” is The Spirit goes where it desires
The Spirit is Sovereign nothing else directs where it goes”

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  4. Mark 16:16 says he that doesn’t not believe the Gospel is condemned

    So it must be important to know the actual biblical gospel Is it a Gospel of Grace or a Gospel of Free Will ?
    Any Gospel that depends on the effort of man is not the Gospel of Grace

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      1. It means natural man has the ability within his nature to desire to believe the Gospel of Grace without being generated from above or (regenerated)

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      2. You already know what i believe I’m discussing the nature of man which the Bible describes

        Just answer the question!! does the Bible teach that natural man has the ability to desire or in other words believe the Gospel of Grace

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      3. Does natural man need to be generated from above first or does he have the inherent ability to desire to believe the Gospel of Grace? Just answer the question Yes or No
        You know scripture well enough to answer Yes or No

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      4. You like to divert and distract from this question. You know I’m asking for one but not both. I want you to give the answer that you hold to … Is it Yes or is the answer No
        You know I don’t want you to repeat “Yes or No”
        If you answer my question, since I asked first I will answer your questions.

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      5. Trying to take one step at a time and build from there. God is orderly. The Gospel of Grace is just that an act of Grace
        Just answer the question; the answer is in scripture. You know scripture; just give your answer. It is either yes or no from your understanding of scripture. I want you to admit that your answer is the opposite of mine. We shouldn’t have to go through this unnecessary exercise.

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      6. Just answer the question from 4 hours ago ! choose Yes or choose No
        Here is the question once again

        “Does natural man need to be generated from above first or does he have the inherent ability to desire to believe the Gospel of Grace? “

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      7. I believe Jehovah loves His elect and saves everyone of them (a great multitude from every tongue, tribe and nation- see Revelation) and that the non elect are eternally damned before they have done anything bad (see Romans 9). Only the sovereign LORD knows the number of the elect and non elect.

        Question for you now: you actually believe that the Messiah atoned for the sins of the non elect whom He knew before the foundation of the world that they would never believe the Gospel – yet He atoned for their sins and condemns them. How can He condemn them if He atoned for their sins and why would He atone for their sins when He knew perfectly that they would never believe in Him? What was the purpose of Him dying on the cross for non elect people who would never believe in the Gospel?

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      8. The opposite- God is pouring out His wrath upon the non elect whom He condemns for all eternity

        The creature cannot appease the wrath and anger of the Holy Triune God, therefore they are eternally damned and the wrath of God does not stop

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      9. Yes. You are not condemned but I will suffer for all eternity in hell according to your teaching, and unless I succumb to your fear based fatalistic gospel, I have no hope.
        BTW the pharisees thought they were special also.

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      10. God the Father chooses sinners and tax collectors among others from every nation even tribes, peoples and languages and Jesus redeems them and the Spirit generated from above

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      11. A clear statement of your belief system, suited for my statement.
        You also teach that God also chooses sinners and tax collectors to burn in hell forever.
        You know, I dont remember any story of Jesus rejecting sinners.

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      12. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. —Romans 5:18

        For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. —Colossians 1:19-20

        so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. —Philippians 2:10-11

        For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. —Romans 11:32

        “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” – 1 Corinthians 15:22

        “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” – 1 Timothy 4:10

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      13. You keep referring to me I’m using scripture I never mention anything about me being chosen and here you go again diverting to that which doesn’t apply I’m using scripture to prove the doctrine of the Gospel of Grace based on Christ’s work alone

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      14. Are you not a chosen true believer, one who is loved by God, living amongst sinful haters of God (that are hated by God) and will roast in hell at the delight of God and His saints, of which you are one??

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      15. We both can read 2nd grade English; so yes there is a difference from the way you have expressed yourself.
        Please answer the question; so it is clear to everyone that we have a different answer to the question.

        I will answer the question; Yes you must be generated from above to believe the Gospel of Grace. I was up front about my answer What is your answer, once again?

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      16. I can not answer the question because it is impossible for me to answer the way you ask it.

        Let me explain with another question.

        Are you still beating your wife?

        No matter how you answer locks you into a no win situation.

        The topic we have been trying to discuss is more nuanced than your question implies, (at least in my opinion.)

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      17. Your example doesn’t apply because the scripture is clear and plainly gives the answer which you want to ignore. You are diverting from answering with scripture the question
        John 3:3,5,8 says no one sees or enters the kingdom of God unless sovereignly generated from above and not everyone is generated from above since not all believe the Gospel of Grace because they weren’t given by the Father, redeemed by the Son and generated by the Spirit.

        The natural man is spiritually dead and because of that fact 1 Corinthians 2:14 he cannot accept spiritual things nor discern them because he is void of generation from above.

        He thinks the effectual work of the cross of Christ is foolishness as you do; since you think he died for everyone even those in hell and actually didn’t pay for anyone’s sins; since it is up to the effort of the sinner to be saved and not the work of Christ alone. 1 Corinthians 1:18

        So the answer to the question from scripture is what I said from scripture. God must sovereignly generate from above John 3:8 and must shine into the heart the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
        2 Corinthians 4:6 in order to believe the Gospel of Grace conditioned on the work of Christ alone without any effort from the sinner. They must be given to the Son by the Father (Predestination) and God will let not one of them be lost which means they will be glorified.

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      18. This is the same message you repeat over and over again. I get it. This is your faith. You have a hobby horse and you refuse to consider other issues. That is fine. That is also another reason I struggle to converse with you. You are always right. Enjoy your pure doctrine.

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      19. I believe the Gospel of Grace alone conditioned on Christ’s work and imputed righteousness alone without any effort from the sinner. This Gospel depicted in the Bible glorifies God not the God that cannot save

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      20. All I know is that I believe the Gospel of Grace alone conditioned on Jesus Christ alone without any effort I know salvation by Grace alone I know this and know this from scripture

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      21. You are chosen. God loves you. He hates 90% of the world but loves you. I get it. All the rest of humanity that doesn’t believe your special teaching is simply human trash that will burn eternally in hell

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      22. You keep saying I said you can’t Why would I keep commenting if that were true? God is control; not me I just keep trying to point out scripture that it points to a Gospel of Grace

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      23. Are you dead physically?, if you aren’t, I can’t say that. I can just tell you once you admit you don’t believe the Gospel of Grace that you haven’t come to the knowledge of the Truth and are still lost.

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      24. I’m getting to the point nothing more can be constructed from scripture to convince you to just rely on scripture and forget natural man’s desire to be in control All I wanted to do is get you to admit that you can believe without being regenerated which from what I read is contrary to John 3:3,5,8 I’m going to have finish here and let it be

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      25. It had been many years since I discovered God is sovereign in his generation from above and shows mercy unconditionally to whom He wills and is the Potter instead of the clay

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      26. It had been a long process of many years since deciding to go with scripture which confirmed unconditional election and reprobation instead of listening to and trusting teachers that wouldn’t systematically use scripture
        The key to everything is John 3:3,5,8 Regeneration must come first by God’s sovereign will to show mercy to whom He wills and harden whom He wills. I’m absolutely fine with that because He is righteous, I trust Him and I have nothing worthy to give him that would contribute to my salvation. It is all Christ who actually bought and paid for those the Father chose to give and the Son redeems and the spirit regenerates and makes alive to the true Sovereign Lord that controls all things.

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      27. When I consider your teaching, it makes sense to become an athiest until He regenerates me. Why fool myself and deceive myself since God hates me and I cant do anything about it until He regenerates me. Why should I worry bout anything since it is all determined from before creation. This could be a very liberating teaching that you have taught!!!

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      28. True but I have no idea if and when that might happen you have never admitted what you believe You never said you must be generated first to believe or denied it Well actually you did agree that you must but then I think by what you said it gave me the impression you were retracting that belief

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      29. Calvinists to my knowledge don’t believe God makes vessels fitted out for destruction They believe God leaves them to act out their evil desires

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      30. I’m going to have to end here. I have said all I can say from scripture The only point I wanted to make distinguishable between you and I was John 3:3,5,8 says you must be generated from above to believe the Gospel of Grace and you believe you don’t need to be regenerated from above to believe the Gospel.

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      31. I guess I was assuming Gill and Spurgeon were following Calvin but I just want to use scripture I really don’t care what Calvin thinks unless it is proven from scripture Talking about Calvin doesn’t mean anything just use scripture. I interpreted John 3:3,5,8 if you disagree I’m ok with that

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      32. Yes, Gospel of Grace would nullify effort from man for salvation since the work of Christ is the only condition The Gospel of Grace is wonderful and simple The issue is why don’t you believe it?

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      33. I really don’t want to be philosophical I think John 3:3,5,8 says you must be born from above to see ( believe the gospel) the kingdom of God Seeing is a spiritual thing which the natural man can’t see

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      34. I don’t have a place where I have found an assembly that adheres to scripture to the point of acknowledging that God causes and controls all things including evil. Did Calvin believe that? The Bible says in Romans 9 that God makes unconditionally vessels of wrath fitted out for destruction to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known in order to show His riches on The vessels of mercy that He is unconditionally making to show the riches of His glory prepared beforehand.

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      35. So you are in the most populous state in America, and I assume you are in a very large city, yet no other believers have been chosen as you have been chosen?
        That must be very difficult!
        You are a very special chosen one, to have such pure doctrine and everyone one else around you are either condemned sinners or heretics!

        Come to think of it, it is amazing how you are able to “adhere to scripture”, and at the same time disobey God’s Word.

        Hebrews 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

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      36. There isn’t any sense in assembling with Mormons or The Watchtower; since we are not suppose to have fellowship with the doctrines of demons; so why would I assemble with the ones that believe in the free will god ( majority) that is in subjection to man’s will.
        I’m able to fellowship with others outside my location. You should worry about the doctrine you believe and not violate Romans 10:1-4; exchanging zeal for doctrine. I’m not sure if this is completely in context for our time; but Jesus said when I come back will I find faith on the earth? Does that mean all these so called “believers” taking the name of “Christianity” are believing false doctrines and man centered doctrines and or including false gods, false Jesus’ false spirits.
        Don’t worry about me worry about what you believe. God will complete the work in me that He has started. He promised to save His people. Doctrines centered on man’s free Will won’t save anyone no matter how many you assemble with of like mindedness.
        I think we have beat this dead horse enough.

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      37. Yes as soon as I touch a nerve, it is time to quit discussing.
        I figured you would shy away from discussing anything else than your precious Romans 9. No matter – you are not assembling with others because you consider yourself better than them – Admit it – You have the pure doctrine and can not put up with any deviation from your theology from others. (Do I hear someone say “Pharisee”?)
        You are a sectarian, and Paul states that this behavior is childish, immature and fleshly. Your claim that everyone else is worshipping false gods, spirits and doctrines is exposing your spirit of superiority and pride. Many cults have used this same accusation for their partisan teaching, and you are no different.
        Can you get along with anyone without disputes and arguments – that is other than the tiny sliver of the pure chosen?
        Your pride is sin and you need to repent of your attitude of arrogance.

        Humble yourself, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you

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      38. I have the impression your nerves are inflamed. My desire to be biblically systematic makes me a Pharisee 😂
        It makes me childish to actually wanting to believe the Gospel of Grace. If I interpret John 3:3,5,8 as being an act of God; that makes me immature childish fleshly 😂 By me not agreeing with the free will god that can’t interfere with man’s decision for his christ, makes me prideful. 😂 I really think you are the one agitated. It is apparent now to my thick skull that we are not like minded.

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      39. You can think that – I have no problem with your opinion of me.

        We each need to examine our own lives and see the fruits of our beliefs.

        You come off as childish immature and fleshly because you consider your belief to be the only one that is acceptable to God, and that all others who claim the name of Christ to be heretics.
        The pharisees had a systematic biblical theology, but was systematically wrong.

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      40. I don’t have an opinion other than you don’t agree with me and do not appear to be agreeable that John 3:3,5,8 is the beginning of God’s Sovereign Grace. If the scripture says in John 3:8 the spirit blows where it desires; that is a sovereign act. If Romans 9 says I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. That is a sovereign act. If John 6:37 says All that the Father gives to Jesus won’t be lost and will come. That is a sovereign act. If God says it is not be the Will of man but by my mercy That is a sovereign act. If God says He will shine into the heart the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ; that is a sovereign act. If God promises to save His people and none will be lost and He does all His desires; that is a sovereign act. Why do you penalize me for just adhering to the simple grammatical lay out of the simple meaning of the words.

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      41. I am not penalizing you in any way. Your beliefs are your beliefs, but your attitude towards others is off putting, and reveals an attitude of arrogance.

        Keep your beliefs. They are yours and you need to be convinced in your own mind

        Your constant arguing seems to be telling me I’m not the only one you are trying to convince though.

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      42. I have no attitude which to say I do is not appropriate considering you make no mention of the previous reference to the simple grammar and simple language of scripture. You sound like you want me to deny what the scripture is saying in lieu of you accusing me of being “ arrogant” as you state. To me that just sounds like an attack and a diversion from what the simple English grammar is saying in those scriptures. I cannot help standing on what it says and that does not make me arrogant. If you believe I’m arrogant because I don’t adhere to what you believe then that is on you not me.

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      43. If I point out the simple English grammar and no one believes it; Do I say they do believe it? I know young kids that within 30 seconds give me the same simple understanding that I have when I read the simple English.

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      44. I could say the same when I show a young child a verse speaking of Jesus being the saviour of the world. Unless they are trained to insert words they will understand
        and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

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      45. 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

        The passage speaks of NOT knowing where it (the wind) comes from, and that being born of the Spirit is similar as to where it comes from and where it goes.

        You seem to know.

        Interesting how you have the secret mysteries, yet Jesus wouldn’t tell Nicodemus.

        You truly are a superior chosen one

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      46. You appeared to skip over “ The Spirit breathes where He desires”
        Nicodemus didn’t seem to understand even though Jesus was giving him scripture. The revealing of the Son and the Gospel is through the gift of the Father to the Son. Jesus knew this. I’m still not sure what would be heretical. It isn’t interesting or something that isn’t answered in Matthew 11:27

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      47. You asked about John 3:8. The spirit breathes where He desires. The verse does not define what makes the object desirable to be breathed on by the Spirit. Just that the Spirit breathes where He desires. Nothing more.

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      48. The verse isn’t even related to any objects or the objects desire or even defines a related object of reception
        It strictly says The Spirit is sovereign because it blows where it desires to blow. Nothing is mentioned about anyone asking for the spirit or being desirably attractive to the spirit. It is only laying the ground that God’s spirit goes where it wants to. It establishes the sovereignty of God very plainly.

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      49. All I can gather from “The Spirit breathes where it desires” is The Spirit goes where it desires
        The Spirit is Sovereign nothing else directs where it goes

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      50. The point is
        “All I can gather from “The Spirit breathes where it desires” is The Spirit goes where it desires
The Spirit is Sovereign; nothing else directs where it goes”

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      51. That point is made on John 3:8
        Please explain John 3:3 (KJ3)

        Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.

        Who is doing the generation from above and why would they need to do it? What does it mean to see the kingdom of God?

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      52. John 3:3 ESV Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

        This passage does not define the order of salvation, it simply states the condition to be able to see the kingdom of God, that is to be born again, or born from above. The verse does not address how to be born again, or who initiates the process or how the action is performed. It is the condition required to be able to see the kingdom of God.

        You are inserting your theology into the text when it isn’t justified. Jesus was not, as far as I can tell, giving Nicodemus a treatise on the details of salvation.

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      53. This passage does not say who does the regeneration. As a matter of fact, it doesn’t even refer to regeneration, unless you are equating that with being born again. The passage simply states that it is necessary to be born again to see the kingdom of God. That is all it teaches.

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      54. Natural doesn’t ask for it. He thinks spiritual things are foolishness; so how would he get it if it wasn’t initiated by God sovereignly from above. He doesn’t see the kingdom of God and has no interest in it; so how would he become generated from above if God didn’t do it for him.
        That is why I asked what does it mean to see the kingdom of God? What is your view on what it means to see the kingdom of God?

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      55. If natural man does not have faith in the gospel and thinks it is foolishness and cannot discern or understand spiritual things then there is no way around regeneration not being a sovereign act of God. He is isn’t going to ask for the spirit.
        It is impossible to deduct anything else from scripture whether we like it or not
        Spiritually dead means not able to see the kingdom of God or have interest; then the Spirit would to breathe where it desires and to whom it desires. All do not see
        I can’t and don’t see it any other way.

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      56. Just those scriptures alone line out the logic and complement each other and one forces the other interpretation of the other; but I understand your position. If natural man is dead spiritually, someone has to make him alive. I’m convinced; but you aren’t, so we can conclude in opposite views

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      57. Here is the scriptural flow without utilizing any other scriptures other than John 3:3,5,8 and
        1 Corinthians 2:14

        Natural man won’t accept spiritual things; that includes the things true from the Holy Spirit, He can’t. They are spiritually discerned. It takes the spirit to understand spiritual things.
        1 Corinthians 2:14

        He is not able. Someone outside of himself must make him spiritually alive in order to make him able to see the kingdom of God John 3:3,5,8

        God’s Spirit breathes where He desires; so in order for a natural man to see the kingdom of God and be saved, God’s spirit must breathe on him. John 3:3,5,8

        We know phenomenologically that not all see the kingdom of God; therefore not all receive the breath of the spirit. There are a lot of people that don’t have the spirit and consequently do not see the kingdom of God

        There are plenty of other scriptures that support these scriptures demonstrating God’s sovereignty in salvation; but they aren’t even needed.

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      58. Let us go back to the original point that we diverted from finalizing. This is my original interpretation which is in conflict with your understanding of John 6:65
        You disagree and that is fine. These are my words of interpretation; not anyone elses

        “John 6:64
        “But there are some of you who are not believing”……………………….
John 6:65
……….. no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.

        True Belief (Faith )comes to Jesus automatically because false faith or belief doesn’t come and can’t come to the true Jesus. I would like to add generation from God with a new spirit has to take place in order to (believe and come) all in one

        Jesus said no one is able to come (believe) unless it has been granted or given by The Father
        
The Greek word shown above that is used in John 6:65 gives no room for enabling. What is given by the Father is belief; consequently faith that comes to Jesus because faith without moving to Jesus is dead and not faith

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      59. I just remembered all you said about my interpretation of John 6:64-65 was “it was just my opinion”. Opinion means there is no scriptural basis

        It is plainly stated by Jesus and I figured if that is all you can say about John 6:65 , we are going to end up nowhere with John 3:3,5,8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 It will end up your interpretation versus mine based on your distortion of natural man’s (not true) ability to Free Will his way to God versus my view or understanding of God’s complete control over man’s will

        The Spirit breathes where it desires (Sovereignty) John 3:8 That means God chooses where to go and to whom

        Natural man won’t ask for spiritual things he isn’t by nature acclimated (Spiritually empty) So he definitely isn’t making the difference in coming

        So God draws (Drags) by breathing His spirit into the unconditionally chosen vessel to soften his God hating heart and he comes because he has faith, once generated, from above ( All don’t have faith and come)

        These unconditionally chosen vessels are the changed natural men given to Jesus that can’t be lost because God always fulfills His desires and these are His sheep that He promised to save

        Matthew 1:21 John 6:37-44 Romans 9 and Romans 8 Romans 10, Romans 11 etc etc

        How can you disturb the force? ( scripture) just to use a demonic phrase from the demonic influenced Star Wars movies

        I’m getting tired of playing written verbal volleyball 🏐 We just don’t believe in the same God. I hope your readers at least see that much.

        God saves conditioned solely on Christ and the natural man won’t come because he is spiritually dead; so God has to get the glory and will get the glory because He knew exactly who Jesus died for before creation, His Sheep, that hear His voice. Why do they hear His voice because God made them spiritually alive. Nothing more nothing less.

        The only desired point I have ever wanted to make was we don’t believe in the same God. We don’t believe the same Gospel.

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      60. I guess all of them 1 Corinthians 2:14 and John 3:8 to start with

        I guess all of them to start with John 3:8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 please use them both in your interpretation as a unit

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      61. Hey – Just got off work and wanted to get back to you on the passages you are speaking of.

        I provided a post on Sept 9th on the 1 Corinthians 2:14 passage.
        https://consideringthebible.com/2021/09/09/calvins-concerns-comment-response-7-1-corinthians-214

        I also provided a post on Aug 5th, for the John 3:3-8 passage
        https://consideringthebible.com/2021/08/05/calvins-concerns-comment-response-2-john-33-8/

        Regarding using them “as a unit”, I think contexts of each passage needs to be considered in trying to understand the original intent of the message, and combining two passages with different audiences, speakers, contexts etc. can introduce a mix message.

        Still not sure what your name is, so I will start calling you “AJ the Calvin man”!?

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      62. I will read it once again; concerning context I agree but we are to use scripture to interpret scripture We have 66 books just call me Double AJ

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      63. It will take me awhile to wade through 1 Corinthians 1 and 2: and into the context of the first part of chapter 3 to develop and build into the meaning of and my understanding of
        1 Corinthians 2:14
        I want to study what you wrote on your post regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14

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      64. I need to ask a question related to the reason the post was created relating to the issue of the interpretation of
        1 Corinthians 2:14 Is your view “ the natural man” is not unregenerate; just immature? I’m assuming the alternative view of the interpretation of “The Natural Man” is that he is unregenerate. Do I have the conflicting views correctly assessed?

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      65. Hey Double AJ – good question and thanks for going through the post and picking up on this. I understand the natural/old man (also referred to as “the flesh” I think) to be unregenerate. At the point of salvation the Spirit of God takes up residence in our corporate (1 Cor 3:16) and personal life (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20) and a battle begins (Galatians 6:8). Although in the passage of 1 Cor 2, I believe Paul is specifically discussing the Corinthians immaturity (1 Cor 3:1-3), I also think that all believers battle with the natural/old man until the point of death. The natural/old man is a selfish, self centered and self loving life (1 John 2:16) that believers need to reject by focusing on the Spirits leading and empowerment.

        Consider the verses I have referred to above (I have added below), check out their context and let me know your thoughts.
        1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

        1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
        1 Corinthians 6:20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

        Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

        1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world–the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life–is not from the Father but is from the world.

        1 Corinthians 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
        1 Corinthians 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
        1 Corinthians 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

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      66. “Generated from above “ means from God who is above Natural Man cannot regenerate himself Yes, “born again” equates to being regenerated or generated from above So I disagree with you saying the scripture meaning is indeterminate or lacking information

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      67. Who is doing the generation from above and What does it mean to see the kingdom of God? Why would anyone need generation from above to see the kingdom of God?

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      68. John 3:8 “The spirit breathes where it desires” says it all “ I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy” I will harden whom I will harden, All that the Father gives will come, I kill, I make alive, I wound, I heal, I make vessels fitted out for destruction, I raised up Pharaoh to show my wrath and make my power known, I declare the end from the beginning, He turns kings hearts wherever He desires, I will do all my desire, His word will prosper for that which He sent it. He turn their hearts to hate His people etc etc etc

        What more do we need to say about man’s will ?

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      69. It does define the first step in salvation You must be “generated from above” to see or to use another scripture be made alive or be given by the Father or drawn by the Father “from above” means from God since we are below plus the Spirit breathes where it desires irrespective of any desire or attraction from any outside force; otherwise no need to reference wherever “The Spirit breathes where it desires”Natural man cannot ask for it to come because he has no desire and doesn’t understand spiritual things or his need. So, generation has to be initiated by God alone since it goes where He desires and natural man doesn’t have a clue. plus in Romans 9:16 we see God’s actions are irrespective of man’s willing or running; but by His mercy; so We don’t need to define a desirable object, there aren’t any.

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      70. I thought I answered this; but in case I didn’t “ The Spirit breathes where it desires” It doesn’t say that we need to define what makes an object desirable to breathe on or into.
        In fact, God says He unconditionally chooses where to go for His purpose according to the counsel of His Will if I might use another scripture in Romans 9 You added the idea that we might consider “ what makes an object desirable” God chose Israel unconditionally there was nothing desirable in them according to my understanding of scripture.

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      71. The doctrine of The Gospel of Grace is pure and simple. Simple enough for all to understand Salvation is conditioned solely on Jesus Christ’s atoning blood and his perfect imputed righteousness. God is able to generate from above whether you are in the womb or outside the womb. God is able to shine into the heart the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. When a regenerated person hears the Gospel of Grace, he will believe it. Nothing more needs to be said.

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      72. I believe God has spoken and I preach the Gospel according to the prophets, Jesus and His apostles. All other gospels are false, and all other Jesus’ are false.

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      73. Jesus didn’t pay effectually for the sins of every single person because not every single person is saved.
        God was and is omniscient; so it is foolish to think He paid for the sins of those that end up in hell.

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      74. There is the judgement of the vessels of wrath fitted out for destruction in order to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known in order to show the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy prepared from beforehand

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      75. If original sin equates to “ Dying you shall die” Yes, I believe in original sin. Adam’s descendants and or who he represented are spiritually dead to the true God ending in physical death and the 2nd death if not generated from above by the sovereign will and mercy of God

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  5. We just believe in 2 different God’s with different attributes which brings us once again back to the beginning of our interaction.

    You believe God created man with a will that God can’t interfere with and I believe God is totally Sovereign and Totally in control of all thoughts and actions. I pray to a Biblical God that saves all by himself and you pray to a god that cannot save.

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    1. This is what you have concluded about my belief. You are settled in your convictions about my belief. You have stated numerous times what you think I believe. I have written multiple posts on my belief but you assign

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  6. I never said you need to continue to pray for me I said if you do pray for me you are praying in vain because you are praying to a god that cannot save because you believe He can’t interfere with my will to be saved or not be saved without justifiably holding me responsible for not coming to Christ.

    It is stupid to pray to a god for the salvation of someone that He can’t save. So, please don’t tell me you are going to pray for me for anything since we don’t believe in the same God. Hopefully that makes sense to you.

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  7. If God is omniscient, He is omniscient before creation; consequently, everything is set in stone prior to creation since he can declare the end from the beginning. You are not free from God to a point where He doesn’t know anything about you. He knows everything otherwise He isn’t God, you are. So, the best you can do is ask as an objector, is “ who can resist His will ?” And “Why did you make me like this? Romans 9
    It is so amazing to me that you think you have free will and at the same time you are fine without not knowing why some are saved and others are not saved.

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  8. No one experiences the Love of God without being given the Holy Spirit by His sovereign will John 3:3,5,8 and being one of His elect. I could list all the scripture but doing that before didn’t seem to penetrate your thoughts

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  9. Romans 10:1-4 demonstrates biblically from scripture that The Apostle Paul judged these Israelites to be lost and by praying to God for their salvation proved that God is in total control of who and when salvation takes place. It is plainly written

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  10. I told you when you acknowledge God’s total control over salvation in praying for the salvation of another you are acknowledging the True God and His attributes. That glorifies God.

    We do not know who the elect are; so we pray for those judged, as Paul did, for their salvation. Is that hard to understand for you?

    Since you pray for God to give me the experience of “His love “, you are praying for Him to take control and change me. No one experiences the Love of God ( The belief of the Gospel) without being changed and saved.

    So, please don’t tell me your free Will kicks in upon that experience.

    Please tell me in plain language and confirm you are praying to a God that can save an unwilling person that has no interest in the Gospel of Christ or the truth and that God can save without any effort from the one He shows mercy; which means He, God of all creation, can save an unknowing and unwilling elect sinner.

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  11. Neither did you answer the question or make the response succinct.
    You did make unsubstantiated claims and prove that I need to continue to pray for you, that you would come to experience the love of God, and not simply a theological system.

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  12. I will answer you with a short succinct answer; but please note, once again, you did not answer and answer biblically my biblical question or questions in the previous comment.

    When a person that acknowledges God’s Sovereign Grace and Total Control over who is saved and the point in time when they are saved, referenced for an example in Romans 10:1-4, we glorify God’s biblical attributes.

    God determines and controls all things; we don’t. We acknowledge that and we don’t know what is determined beforehand, only God does; and in acknowledging that, we also know from scripture, God also ordains the means as well as the ends.

    When a free will advocate, one who believes that God can’t interfere with man’s will to be saved or not be saved because he wouldn’t be able to hold man responsible if he did interfere, actually prays to a god that cannot save, He is showing himself to be a hypocrite and one that is unbiblical. So, you would be very plainly be praying in vain if you prayed for me.

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  13. John 6:64

    “But there are some of you who are not believing”……………………….
    John 6:65
    ……….. no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.

    True Belief (Faith )comes to Jesus automatically because false faith or belief doesn’t come and can’t come to the true Jesus

    Jesus said no one is able to come (believe) unless it has been granted or given by The Father
    The Greek word shown above that is used in John 6:65 gives no room for enabling. What is given by the Father is belief; consequently faith that comes to Jesus

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      1. I can obviously say the same; otherwise, I would have given up. I have been told by at least 3 people of like minded understanding of scripture to let you go; but when I seen how you handled the most recent post; I, once again, thought you might see the simple.

        My rule has been to let scripture be the guide to my belief; not the other way around. The Bible is systematic.

        I can tell you from scripture God has to generate into a natural man a new creation by His sovereign Will to have mercy.

        You can’t answer how one comes to believe; yet the scriptures answers.

        I can’t believe God didn’t determine all things before creation because the Bible says He did determine all things before creation.

        Unconditional election was a joyous revelation upon regeneration for me. I love God being in control; knowing I can never be lost. I trust in a righteous God who died for me and I know I’m in agreement with scripture.

        He loved Jacob before he had done anything good or bad which means before creation. He hated Esau before He had done anything good or bad before creation.

        God has the right to form vessels at His discretion. He is God. He is Omniscient. He can only act unconditionally because He is omniscient.

        He is molding vessels for His glory and for the benefit of His elect to show the riches of His glory upon those vessels of mercy.

        I have answers to my faith; you don’t. Salvation is by grace and if man’s effort has anything to do with salvation; it is not by grace according to scripture.

        If you can tell me how one believes and another doesn’t and how the one that believes wouldn’t have a right to boast about it, since God didn’t supply the gift of faith; then I will listen; but you can’t.

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      2. “Why would you pray. All things are determined before the foundation of the world!”

        Another answer would be –
        God said to pray! and we don’t know what is determined beforehand and since God is molding vessels by His hand, He has ordained the means as well as the end all to His glory. He works the willing and the doing for His good pleasure and we consequently move in accordance.

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  14. “Lets consider the action of the Father in this verse. The one coming is granted by the Father. It seemed a funny word to use in this translation, but after reviewing some study books, found it is synonymous with “enabled”. The same idea of the Father enabling the one coming is similar in our previous post on John 6:44”

    “Granted” does mean “ enabled”

    John 6:65 (KJ3) Literal translation

    And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.

    English Standard Version
    And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    Greek interlinear
    “Have been granted” ( Given)

    1325. didómi ►
    Strong’s Concordance
    didómi: to give (in various senses lit. or fig.)
    Original Word: δίδωμι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: didómi
    Phonetic Spelling: (did’-o-mee)
    Definition: to give
    Usage: I offer, give; I put, place.

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  15. John 6:64-65
    But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they are, the ones not believing, and who is the one giving Him over.

    65 And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.

    Please notice in verse 65 “no one is able to come to Me” equates to “some of you are not believing “ because the ability to come through believing has not been “given” from My Father in verse 64

    “Not believing” equals “ not given” from my Father

    See: John 3:3,5,8

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