As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the second portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Scripture says God is sovereign in his decision to whom he will have mercy which is in accordance with Romans 9:16 and other scripture Romans 9:15,18 The natural man doesn’t come and can’t come 1 Corinthians 2:14 John 6:44 John 6:65 He doesn’t have the ability because he lacks spiritual discernment because he doesn’t have the spirit.
This post will consider what many Calvinist’s may consider their most powerful proof text. I know when I was deep into this philosophy, this was my go-to text to prove that natural, fallen man would not come to the Father, unless the Father quickened him first.
John 6:44 – No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
One of the stronger arguments for this passage, from a Calvinist standpoint is the use of the term draw in the passage. Many would suggest that the term actually is synonymous with dragging, or compelling. If this is accurate, then this needs to be admitted to and we may need to reconsider our outlook on this topic.
There are a few verses that include this word that may support the drag/compel idea
Acts 16:19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.
Acts 21:30 Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.
James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?
Each of the above verses translates our term as “drag”. Let’s continue with Strong’s definition.
ἑλκύωhelkýō, hel-koo’-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
Strongs provides some support for the term to by synonymous with “drag”.
One more resource – let’s consider Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words for a bit of enlightenment on this term “Draw”
“to draw,” differs from suro, as “drawing” does from violent “dragging.” It is used of “drawing” a net, Jhn 21:6, 11 (cp. No. 1, in ver. 8); Trench remarks, “At vv. 6 and 11helko (or helkuo) is used; for there a drawing of the net to a certain point is intended; by the disciples to themselves in the ship, by Peter to himself upon the shore. But at ver. 8 helko gives place to suro: for nothing is there intended but the dragging of the net, which had been fastened to the ship, after it through the water” (Syn., xxi).
This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify “drawing” by inward power, by Divine impulse, Jhn 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., Sgs 1:4; Jer 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.” It is used of a more vigorous action, in Jhn 18:10, of “drawing” a sword; in Act 16:19; 21:30, of forcibly “drawing” men to or from a place; so in Jam 2:6, AV, “draw,” RV, “drag.”
Notice that Vines describes this drawing as “drawing by inward power, by divine impulse”, and links two verses using this word in the gospel of John. This is important since it is the same author, the same book and the same speaker. But let’s move on with our consideration of John 6:44 before we consider the implications John 12:32.
Consider that the verse doesn’t state “No man comes” but that “no man CAN come”. The drawing of God the Father gives ability to the one coming. It does not state “No man will come…” In short, it is similar to a my sending out invitations to 100 folks in my neighborhood to a party on Saturday. All 100 people have been invited and they can come. Will all 100 people come? Maybe. Maybe not. The invite simply gives them the ability, it does not produce the outcome, it does not necessarily impact the will of the invited. When we place the emphasis on the term “draws”, without considering the intent of the drawing, we can come up with a deterministic slant to the verse.
Is this the message Jesus is giving to the crowds?
Lets check out the context of this passage to get a bit bigger view of the teaching the Lord gave to the crowd on that day.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me–
Jesus repeats the condition of the one who comes to the Father, speaking of all being taught of God, and that those who have heard and learned, are the ones who actually come to the Father. Those that actually have come to the Father have exercised their will by listening and learning (note past tense!) from the Father.
So, the Father draws those to give them ability to come, and yet there is the decision to hear and learn that is required in the ones who come. (They actually read the invite and decide to come to the party!)
But wait – there is more!
Remember when Vines connected the term draw from John 6:44 with John 12:32? This becomes a bit of a problem for those who would demand that it should be understood as a dragging that is irresistible, that cannot be refused.
Remember that those who teach of a deterministic salvation would demand that God determines who is saved and who is eternally lost. That God chooses who is “dragged” into the Kingdom, using John 6:44 as a proof text.
Fair enough, for if that is true, that is that the term is to be understood as a literal “dragging”, we have great news, for the Lord used the same term in John 12:32.
Let’s read it the way our Calvinist friends understand the term “draw”.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will “irresistibly drag” all people to myself.”
Does this not tells us that all people will be irresistibly dragged into the Kingdom, that all people have been chosen to be included in the salvation provided by Jesus death on the cross.
Simple deductive reasoning of these two verses, using the Calvinistic supplied definition of “draw” as “drag”, produces the result that God chooses everyone that has ever had a heartbeat.
My point is – using one or two verses to support a teaching may be a very unwise approach for the believer. There are many teachings in the church nowadays due to the emphasis on a few well chosen verses.
Regarding John 6:44, my personal thoughts are that we have a living God that is active in our lives before we decide to follow Him. He sends “the invite” allowing us to decide for Him. He has provided the Savior for our forgiveness and justification, the Spirit of God to comfort and direct us, and the love of the Father to woo us to His side. His patience and mercy are everlasting, and His grace is abounding towards us.
To consider the drawing as dragging cheapens the invite.
I have never “dragged” folks to my party and found that they ever had a good time. I imagine they would just look at me and wander off, shaking their head.
No, the very act of love that the Lord displayed for all is the greatest of reasons to accept the invite. Forcing an acceptance implies that the singular greatest act of love was not quite enough.
Thanks for taking the time to read and consider. I would appreciate a chance to honestly discuss this verse and topic, and look forward to an edifying discussion.
Considering the Bible 
Telling you that God loves you is offensive? Is that too personal? Have you ever experienced the love of God, His personal care for you? Have you ever trusted Him or are you depending on your systematic theology?
My friend, Jesus came to earth to be with us, to forgive the sinner, to touch, hug, cry and laugh with His people. He wants to be personal.
LikeLike
Personal
LikeLike
?
LikeLike
You don’t have to get personsl
LikeLike
You ignore John. 6 you ignore John 3,3,5,8 you ignore Romans 3:10-12 you ignore Romans 8 you ignore Romans 9 You ignore God has to make you alive so since we know scripture doesn’t contradict itself where does that leave you It leaves you without a system but a empty hope
LikeLike
God loves you
LikeLike
Romans 8:29-30
But we know that to the ones loving God all things work together for good, to the ones being called out ones according to purpose;
29 ¶ because whom He foreknew (fore-loved), He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First- begotten among many brothers.
30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified
Romans 9:11-13
11 for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,
12 it was said to her, “The greater shall serve the lesser”;
13 even as it has been written, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”
LikeLike
According to John 3:,3,5,8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 3:10-12
LikeLike
Read the 2 scriptures in the literal translation KJ3 slowly
LikeLiked by 1 person
You kinda sound like your only support is one translation done by a single translator. This reminds me of another group of teachers that depends on one translation to defend their teachings. At least when they knock on my door, they are polite.
LikeLike
If you notice John 3:16 they are already in the state of believing
Whoever is believing ! It never deals with where the faith came from but we know for sure it didn’t originate with natural man
LikeLike
This should support the KJ3 since the Interlinear agrees. You should use another translation
Go to Bible Hub
John 3:16
Interlinear verses
1325 [e]
edōken
ἔδωκεν ,
He gave
V-AIA-3S
2443 [e]
hina
ἵνα
so that
Conj
3956 [e]
pas
πᾶς
everyone
Adj-NMS
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
–
Art-NMS
4100 [e]
pisteuōn
πιστεύων
believing
V-PPA-NMS
LikeLike
To clarify only those that have been generated from above (regenerated) believe the Gospel The natural man thinks spiritual things are foolishness
LikeLike
Here is what you can’t and won’t accept about John 6 because you have too tight a grip on “free” will
1. The Father gives to Jesus ALL that He GIVES
( versus 37)
2. All that come to Jesus are the ones The Father GIVES
3. The Will of the Father is ALL He GIVES to Jesus, Jesus will GIVE eternal life and raise up
4. Then to top it off Jesus always does the Will of the Father and the Will of the Father is Jesus won’t lose one That The Father GIVES; which means He GIVES eternal life to only those GIVEN and raises them up in the last day.
5. Then in verse 40 he gives the process that the ones GIVEN to Jesus for eternal life will go through
They will see him (understand through His word) believe into Him ( generated from above) GIVEN eternal life that Jesus will GIVE.
A child would understand the ones GIVEN are not including every single individual that is living has lived and will live and The Father controls who is GIVEN which is very consistent with that fact in Romans 9 for at least 1 example “ I will have mercy on whomever I will mercy”
Revelation 7:9 and Revelation 20:10-15 gives us that fact that The Father did not GIVE every created human being to Jesus for Him to GIVE eternal life
The Father is in complete control and never once mentions man’s empty non existent concept and desire to promote “Free” Will
Then to eliminate any question that we are talking a limited set of ALL
Jesus tells the unregenerate ones in John 6:43 to stop murmuring; who were the ones that thought he was just the product of earthly parents and they had no regenerate clue that He come out of heaven.
Obviously their thoughts still blinded by the god of this age proving they were still in an unregenerate stage; Indicating God The Father had not revealed or shone in their hearts the illumination of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
John 3:3,5,8 and 2 Corinthians 4:6
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
Then to consummate the blow to these unregenerate persons murmuring, He says
John 6:44
No one is able to come to Me if not the Father, the One having sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day
We have arrived right back to John 6:37
ALL The Father Gives
Then in verse 45
“ They “ will all be taught are the ones that The Father GIVES and we are once again back to where we began in John 6:37 because they are the only ones taught who gained understanding through regeneration and the washing of the word of God because they were the only ones GIVEN.
LikeLike
John 17:3
And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the One whom You sent
Faith generated from knowing the True God is the difference. If we have 2 different Gods with a different set of attributes, there is no way to mesh. Please go through John 6 verse by verse explaining your understanding of each verse so I can get a grasp on what you teaching. Picking on John 6:44 and not including John 6:37-43 doesn’t give the full picture.
LikeLike
Sorry not sure we have a label
LikeLike
No sure that we have a label
LikeLike
One believes in a god who cannot save because is dependent on His creation and One believes in a God that saves and is not dependent on His creation
LikeLike
So you are telling me that only Calvinists are truly saved. Finally understand your faith in this. And it is your belief.
LikeLike
There you go again incorrectly labeling “Calvinists” once again, it doesn’t apply
LikeLike
Sure. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck….
LikeLike
I don’t think calvinists believe God is making unconditionally vessels fitted out for destruction. I think they believe they are making themselves
LikeLike
I also don’t believe “ Calvinists” believe the vessel fitted out for destruction is being hardened by God. Romans 9
My impression is some at least that use the term “Calvinists” believe the vessel is hardening themselves. So, there is at least 2 reasons not to mis represent and put that label on us
LikeLike
Do you have a label?
LikeLike
I’m not sure
LikeLike
Not sure what you mean?
LikeLike
Only those that believe the Gospel of God are regenerated and saved.
The Gospel is : God promises to save His people chosen unconditionally from before the foundation of the world conditioned solely on Jesus Christ’s atoning shed blood and His imputed righteousness and their salvation is exacting and ensured based on the work of Christ alone and the process from regeneration to final glorification is of God without any work or effort from those whom He represented on the cross and His perfect substitutionary perfect life lived.
LikeLike
I think you mean only those regenerated by God believe the gospel, right?
LikeLike
Yes
LikeLike
I didn’t say (will be) regenerated I said are regenerated The ones that believe are regenerated Belief is the fruit of God’s act of regeneration or generating from above
LikeLike
Colossians 2:12 speaks of spiritual resurrection through faith.
How can Paul say that when your truth says regeneration comes before faith. Is this where Paul got it wrong?
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
LikeLike
Colossians 2:12
having been buried together with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, the One having raised Him from among the dead ones.
LikeLike
Dang. Paul is wrong again. Sounds like confession and belief result in salvation. How could they be so so wrong.
I’m afraid he may not have known the secret mysteries your have known and teach. I’m thankful that you are willing to correct this heresy Paul, and John have written of.
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved
LikeLike
He isn’t wrong
LikeLike
Either paul or you two are wrong. Saying two different things from what I read.
Have your systematic theology- i am convinced you are confident it is correct and understand it places you in the best, most sanctified and knowledgeable group of God’s favorites. Oh I sorry I mean the only ones that God favors.
You must be so happy.
LikeLike
We are confident because we lay out the scriptures That is all that is necessary
LikeLike
Enjoy your confidence.
LikeLike
Instead of jabbing Why don’t lay out the scriptures systematically and try starting with God
LikeLike
You need to humble yourself before the Master. He loves you and wants to give you an abundant life to experience, and not just a head knowledge to numb a troubled conscience
LikeLike
The Gospel is definitely knowledge because John 17:3 says
And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the One whom You sent.
Romans 10:1-4 says the same thing the unsaved do not know
I’m just referring to scripture. It has nothing to do with being humble or not humble. You want me to believe in a God that cannot save because He is dependent on man. You should be more humble because you are puffed up on a idol
I’m sorry I can’t believe in a false description of God that cannot save is dependent on man for salvation and be in contradiction to Isaiah 45:20
LikeLiked by 1 person
I am praying for you
LikeLike
Well, according to the scriptures, you are not praying to My Jesus, My God; you are praying to a god that cannot save and interfere with my free will; I can’t understand how you could even consider praying considering what you believe. You believe God can’t interfere with my Will and save me. You are a walking contradiction; so it won’t help me and I doubt it will help you.
LikeLike
It’s either / or for you isn’t it. No mystery at all.
LikeLike
It has to be one or the other because God shines into the heart the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
God would not shine into the heart the knowledge of the glory of a god who cannot save. There is no glory in this god; man takes the glory
He is not the author of confusion nor is He is a God of contradiction where it wouldn’t matter whether you believe one or the other. He gives the knowledge of the truth.
LikeLike
There isn’t any mystery to consider.
You describe a god who cannot save a person against the person’s will.
The Bible describes a God who saves not of the (one)willing or not of the (one) running, but of the (one)having mercy of God; conditioned solely on Jesus Christ’s substitutionary work and person for His people He promised to save; The children of Promise
Matthew 1:21 , Acts 20:28
Romans 3,4,8,9,10 Ephesians 1,2 John 3, 6,10,17
LikeLike
Does this make sense ? You are praying to a god to change my free Will to believe in a god that cannot save; but you have already alluded that God can’t interfere with my free will because that would be deterministic 🤔
LikeLike
God loves you and Jesus died for you.
LikeLike
I am the Good Shepherd ! The Good Shepherd lays down His life on behalf of The Sheep (🐑 )
See John 10:11 (KJ3)
And I give eternal life to them (The 🐑)and they (The 🐑) shall not perish to the age, not (ever) And not anyone shall snatch them (The 🐑) out of My hand John 10:28
My Father who has given (them) (The 🐑)to Me is greater than all, and no one (including The 🐑) is able to snatch them ( The 🐑) out of My hand John 10:29
All ( The sheep 🐑) that the Father gives to Jesus will not be lost. These are The Sheep 🐑 that Jesus died on behalf of in John 10:11
See John 6:37-44
But you do not believe, for you are not My sheep(🐑), even as I said to you John 10:26 (KJ3)
Why didn’t the (sheep 🐑)the ones above labeled “ you are not My sheep” 🐑 believe ?
Answer: See John 3:3,5,8 and Matthew 11:27
They ( Those sheep 🐑)above in verse John 10:26 were not The Good Shepherds sheep 🐑) were not generated from above in order to see the kingdom of God and know through the washing of the Word The True God and Jesus Christ the one whom He sent which is everlasting life
See John 17:3 See Ephesians 5:25-27
Consequently the ones labeled “ you are not My sheep”(🐑)are not part of The sheep 🐑 that Jesus ( The Good Shepherd) died on behalf of and is shepherding in John 10:11
LikeLike
And john seems to state everlasting life comes through believing, not believing coming though being regenerated.
Why did he get it backwards?
16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
LikeLike
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
LikeLike
Unconditional election was a very joyous doctrine; once I determined it was ok to dump respected and notable teachers of free will and lean on scripture because of regeneration .
God regenerates and completes His work at final glorification because He promised to save His people.
If natural man had a non existent concept of free will, Jesus Christ may have died for no one and that would cause God not to be able to save His people He promised to save; and that could never happen because God doesn’t lie
LikeLike
That again is your belief.
LikeLike
How do you know you are one of the elect?
LikeLike
He that believes into Me has eternal life
LikeLike
Another verse quoted incorrectly
LikeLike
You asked
“How do you know you are one of the elect?”
I said
“He that believes into Me has eternal life “
The scripture actually says
John 6:47
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one believing into Me has everlasting life.
Although the words aren’t verbatim, It doesn’t appear I changed the meaning
LikeLike
Interesting how you can change the words and claim it doesn’t change the meaning. I seem to remember this was a sticking point earlier in our discussions when I did the same.
You surely have the secret mysterious knowledge that only the initiated have in order to have the freedom to revise the words of Scripture. Your authority and knowledge is vast and we thank you for sharing the crumbs of your pure doctrine with us mere beggars.
LikeLike
There are a lot of translations of John 6:47 that change the words but not the essential meaning
ESV
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
KJV
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
KJ3
Truly, truly, I say to you, The one believing into Me has everlasting life.
NIV
John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
My answer was the essential part of the verse that answered your question “How do you know you are one of the elect?”Did I really have to quote the whole verse in this case for you to understand the part that answers?
“He that believes into Me has eternal life “
I should have went to the verse to cut and paste but I was lazy and thought it unnecessary since it didn’t change the meaning
LikeLike
I believed and yet you call me a false teacher, heretic, blind and deaf. I don’t understand how we can both believe and yet you have life, but I am condemned, without any hope, blind deaf and dead….
So confusing
LikeLike
Paul would like to comment on the your comment above
“No need for you to be confused Carl because you do not believe in the true Jehovah of Scripture but a man made false god – a god made up in your own mind- you believe in a different god- a false Jesus who loves everyone (the elect and the non elect) the same, a Jesus who atoned for the sins of those he said “you will die in your sins” the non elect (Jn 8:24), a false Holy Spirit who is trying to “woo” and draw/“invite” every person that has ever lived, is living now and ever will live, and this same false Holy Spirit fails to save these “woo’ed” ones over and over and over (he fails trillions of times every second). Carl “believes” in another Father who cannot save one single soul without the creatures “free will” – he believes in a “free will” that is not spiritually dead in its trespasses and sins, but one that is spiritually alive and has an ability to choose to save himself. He believes in a salvation that is conditioned upon man and his false god (synergism) – the two working together to bring about redemption. Carl’s heart is dull, his ears are deaf, and his eyes are blind spiritually- so make no mistake about it Car, you are not my brother in Christ and you are not a true believer but you are part of the “bad fruit” produced by the bad tree (the false teachers). You twist the scriptures to your own destruction posting lies giving no defense for the hope that is in you (1Pet 3:15). You are known as “without a defense”.
Repent Carl, and believe in the true Jesus and the true Gospel lest you die in your sins.
LikeLike
You know Paul, you were less condemnatory when we chatted on the phone a few weeks back.
You seem much bolder to make accusations on a text.
By the way did you research that study I suggested or simply rely on your systematic theology for answers?
LikeLike
Paul’s response to your conversation
Carl, I was being gentle and respectful on the phone (1Pet 3:15). I defend the Gospel in writing with boldness because I defend the faith against your written heresy. Stop writing heresy and there will be no need for me to defend the truth against you in writing.
Those who believe in the true Jesus and true Gospel are saved and has nothing to do with Calvinism. All who are taught by God come to the knowledge of the truth. False believes like you are always learning but never come to the knowledge of the truth (2Tim 3:7)
As I stated in my earlier comment- anyone who believes in a false Jesus, a false Gospel and believes that salvation is conditioned on mans free will decision is lost.
The person and work of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit are not secondary issues. No sir, these are critical and vital issues and those who do not believe in the Jesus preached and taught by the Apostles let him be accursed.
LikeLike
Dang – I forgot that 1 Peter 3:15 doesn’t apply to comment sections on the internet. How could I be so foolish to forget that!!!
LikeLike
Response from Paul
I am being both gentle and respectful to you on the phone and in writing. I have not disrespected you in any way. I’ve been cordial and very patient with you. You are the one that has jokes and is being sarcastic and facetious. I’ve even been willing to converse with you on the phone. Please notice that the 1Pet 3:15 text says nothing about condemning heresy. You draw up a straw man argument (well done clap 👏🏼). Besides, my point concerning the 1Pet 3:15 is about your inability to defend the Gospel, your inability to give an answer or make a defense for this false gospel and false Jesus you are preaching on the internet. Jwalk and I are constantly asking you about this gospel and Jesus you are presenting and we are constantly correcting your eisegesis and you are unable to answer in a succinct accurate way that is consistent and truthful when it comes to your twisting of the Scriptures. Go through the posts and you will see you hardly ever answer any of our questions. For instance, “is the mercy in Romans 11:32 a mercy by God that saves or is it a non saving mercy ?” You never answer you are “without a defense”.
To be honest with you I don’t bother asking you anymore questions. I read what you write and then I crush it to fine powder with the Word of God.
Repent of believing in another Jesus and repent of believing in a false gospel!
LikeLike
Gives means ALL that the father gives will be given eternal life by Jesus That is quantity and quality
LikeLike
What? I mean the quantity of words you provide does not nec equal quality argument…
LikeLike
John 6:45 (KJ3)
It is being written in the Prophets, They “shall” all “be taught of God.” Therefore every one hearing and having learned from the Father comes to Me; Isa. 54:13
Comment
“They shall all be taught of God”
Who shall “all” be taught of God?
The ones that the Father gives to Jesus in verse 37 will be taught of God because those are the ones He gave to Jesus to give eternal life and to raise up in the last day. The persons He promised to save. Matthew 1:21 These are the ones drawn to Jesus
He just told the persons who didn’t have a clue who He was or where He came from not to murmur with one another. They didn’t know He came out of heaven and just thought He was Joseph and Mary’s son.
Then He tells them why they shouldn’t murmur….. It was because they weren’t given to the Father because no one comes unless the Father gives them to Jesus.
LikeLike
You do realize quantity doesn’t equal quality right?
LikeLike
In the chapter John 6 according to you all invited are saved since All the father gives will not be lost
LikeLike
Where dis I say that?
LikeLike
Say what ? I think you said he invites; but not all come; but yet the scripture says All the father GIVES (100%) (that is His doing) (not the invitee) the giving is what determines who will come and the ones that come are given first by the father then drawn by the spirit and they are the ones that come and are saved. Is that what you said ?
LikeLike
I said that is the result of consistent deterministic teaching using drag for synonym of draw
LikeLike
Follow the flow of what is written in John 6 It is not someone’s opinion about some consistent “deterministic teaching” It doesn’t matter whether you use draw or drag; The natural man has no ability or desire to come to the truth because he couldn’t care less about spiritual things. He thinks they are foolishness ( actual spiritual things) ( The true Gospel that God actually saves His people all by himself) and nothing will interfere with His building His called out ones Matthew 16 ( I might add even the resistant ones chosen like the apostle Paul) Matthew 1:21 Acts 7 or 8 or 9 ( you know)
1 Corinthians 2:14 Natural man doesn’t have the spirit to discern what he is reading about dealing with spiritual things; that God has to do the saving and He has mercy on whom He wills.
LikeLike
Please correct my interpretation or understanding
LikeLike
Nothing to correct. It is your belief.
LikeLike
My belief is based on my understanding at looking at chapter verse by verse let alone bringing other verses in to support and reinforce.
Please go verse by verse and give me your understanding
Your insertion of “invitation” or “inviting” or “invite” is truly perplexing to me. Is that you belief that “come” by drawing means invite and then on top of the insertion or mistranslation you tell me, you ignore all “invited” (your term) are saved.
LikeLike
Carl you know I was interpreting the verses in context not intending to cut and paste exactly.
LikeLike
Let us make it simple then
If All the Father gives to Jesus comes to Jesus and Jesus will give eternal life to all the Father gives to Him and Jesus Will raise them up in the last day and Jesus came down from heaven to do the Will of the father and the Father always accomplishes His Will and Jesus always does the Will of the Father then
Why isn’t this plain and simple ?
LikeLike
If making it simple like that makes it more believable for you, then that is your belief
LikeLike
Go through the chapter verse by verse and prove me incorrect
LikeLike
Many verses used that are copied with words added or removed. Kinda sloppy for someone so dedicated to the Scripture.
LikeLike
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to Me…
Comment – It is apparent the majority of people in the world don’t come to Jesus under any circumstances and have not heard or learned of the truth of the Gospel.
So, “All” that the Father gives to Jesus cannot mean every person in the world that has lived or is living or will live. It is a set of “ All” the Father gives to Jesus
John 6:38
Jesus said He came down from Heaven to do the Will of the Father. We know from scripture the Will of The Father is always accomplished
Comment
What was the Will of the Father? That of “All” ( a limited amount) (since every person does not come to Jesus) The Father gives to Jesus He won’t lose one of them; but will raise them up in the last day. That means All given by the Father will be saved. No exceptions
The reason the “All” is a limited set of people that the Father gives is because none of the ones the Father gives will be lost and we know that most people remain lost.
John 6:39
Comment- All that the Father gives will not be lost and will be raised up to eternal life.
Not all receive eternal life according Revelation 7:9 and Revelation 20:10-15 So, the “All “ The Father gives to Jesus will be given eternal life and raised in the last day and is limited to a set (All) determined by the Father giving those certain people to Jesus
John 6:40
Comment- As part of the Father’s will is for All those people given to Jesus will in this life see the Son, believe into Him and be given everlasting life and Jesus will raise them up in the last day.
Jesus just said in verse 39 that the ones given eternal life were the exact ones the Father gives to Him.
So, once again the “ All” that are saved are the limited number of the ones the Father gives to Jesus
John 6:43
Comment -Jesus tells them “Do not murmur among yourselves” They did not realize that He came out of heaven.
Then in John 6:44 he tells them why they should not murmur because no one understands 1 Corinthians 2:14 unless The Father draws them.
John 10:26 says they must be His sheep and because they are not His sheep, they don’t believe.
John 6:37 -They must be given by the Father.
John 6:44
No one is able to come to Me if not the Father, the One having sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“of course it’s what I (Paul) believe because I believe the Scriptures and what Jesus and His apostles have said. You on the other hand Carl- cannot hear or see for the Gospel is hardening you”
LikeLike
If I cannot hear or see, how could the gospel be hardening me?
That makes no sense, but I suppose it is because I don’t have the secret mysterious knowledge only the initiated blessed ones have.
Oh well. I can’t hear or see.
LikeLike
Paul’s answer to hardening
Answer: the Gospel hardens you further and further every time you hear it. Just like the Pharaoh and the Pharisees. Let me give you the example taken right out of Isaiah (I use biblical examples unlike you – you give some lame unbiblical examples that make no sense). “And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.””
Isaiah 6:9-10 ESV
When I say you don’t have ears to hear- it means that you cannot “understand” and when I say you cannot see it means you cannot “perceive”. And when I say the Gospel is hardening you further, it means that every time I preach the Gospel and every time you read the Gospel in the Scriptures it makes your heart more dull and your ears get heavier (this is to say that you reject it even more and more and more every time you hear it). According to the Scripture the Gospel makes your heart dull, your ears heavy and blinds your heart! And this my friend is called “Gospel hardening”
LikeLike
And blinds your eyes
LikeLike
Ok. But you said I am deaf and blind, so I’m not able. So am i being hardened or am i blind and deaf. Which is it?
LikeLike
Paul’s answer to his comment and your question
“You are all three: blind, deaf and hardened “
LikeLike
That is your belief
LikeLike
You say that a lot “ That is your belief” but I think it applies to you because your scriptural analysis lacks being systematic and reflects your desired belief that man has built into his fallen nature, somehow, a free will that is unknown to God because if God knew about all your decisions ahead of time then we would have to conclude like the objector did in Romans 9
“Why did you make me like this?”Then you could be the objector in Romans 9 “
But since you think He doesn’t know what you will decide and can’t interfere, we are back to open theism God reacting to natural man’s freedom from God not being able to interfere with someone’s will to remain lost.
Now I have given you my impression of your teaching
LikeLike
Thank you AJ. Your assumptions are noted.
LikeLike
Carl, I decided to post a response from Paul first
“All that the Father gives me will come to me” and then Jesus says, “no one can come to me” (no one has the ability) if not the Father, the one having sent me, draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. So the giving by the Father results in the drawing and then ultimately the raising of the same individual. This is the Golden chain of redemption. “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
Romans 8:30 ESV
You can’t break the chain – for the Father predestines or gives the person to the Son (all that the Father gives me), and this results in the “effectual” calling or the “DRAWING”, and the ones He “draws” results in justification, and the justification results in the glorification “the raising up on the last day”
Therefore exegetically Paul in Romans 8 and 9 is preaching exactly what Jesus preached. Mainly that the person does not have free will ability to believe or come to Christ of his own volition, but to the contrary – all of Gods people who will inherit the Kingdom of God are elected by the Father in eternity past and given to the Son and drawn by the Holy Spirit which results in regeneration, justification and glorification.” This golden chain of redemption exegetically cannot include the non elect because the syntax will not allow it.
LikeLike
That is fine. It is Paul’s belief.
LikeLike