As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the second portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Scripture says God is sovereign in his decision to whom he will have mercy which is in accordance with Romans 9:16 and other scripture Romans 9:15,18 The natural man doesn’t come and can’t come 1 Corinthians 2:14 John 6:44 John 6:65 He doesn’t have the ability because he lacks spiritual discernment because he doesn’t have the spirit.
Romans 9:15 – For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:18 – So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
This set of two texts, as proof texts for individual election are very powerful if provided without the general context. All those of the reformed inclination focus on these verses and seem to give more weight than any other verse or set of verses that might temper or provide guidance in the overall teaching of the New Testament.
As reading this set of verses in Romans 9, I have suggested a corporate reading of the text. One way to consider this viewpoint is in the following “picture”
A king wished to be entertained by a singing group, and called upon a nearby town to provide a singing group. All the townspeople had an opportunity to join the singing group, and eventually, one month before the appearance before the king, a group was established.
Of course, as the day of appearing before the king grew near, an occasional singer may fall sick, choose to drop out or simply give up. Also during this time, those within the town have changed their mind and requested to join the group. In the kings invitation, the stipulated requirement was to provide the choir, not specific people to make up the singing group.
In front of the king, on that fateful day, the choir sang before him and the invitation to perform in front of the king was a success. Specific townsfolk decided (willfully or otherwise) to either join or ignore the opportunity. But the calling (invite) was for a singing group. Specific people in the group still retained the freedom the join or abandon the opportunity, yet the calling of the singing group was complete.
As you read through that feeble attempt to explain my understanding, there will be those who find fault in the picture. That is to be expected, since I (as all others) are looking through a glass darkly. I do not want to imply this is the only way to understand Romans 9, as a text on its own.
Yet, in the larger context of Romans 9-11, I find passages that have a very inclusionary feel about the gospel.
Rom 3 has clearly stated that
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God
Pauls theological teaching on the gospel of God comes t a close with Romans 22 and immediately prior to the praise Paul beaks into of the inestimable riches, wisdom and knowledge of God, he makes the following summary statement.
The supposed calling of a specific individual election to salvation, prior to the foundation of the world seems to be left behind in this summary statement.
How could Paul, in giving so strong of an argument convining his readers of the sinfulness of all in Romans 3, and continuing with the all inclusive language of God consigning all to disobedience in verse 32, then immediately restrict His ability to have mercy on only a subset of the all?
Romans 11:32 tells us of the intent of God consigning all to disobedience. He desires to have mercy on all.
Following are a number of translations for the reader to consider of Romans 11:32, in order to quell any doubt as to the intent of the apostle
KJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NKJV
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
ESV
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
RSV
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
NIV
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Thanks for dropping by.
As many who read this bIog may know I have spent many of the days of my pilgrimage in dwelling on specific passages that seem to support my thinking. I spent many years rejecting any teaching (or passage) that seemed to challenge a specific belief. I found I wanted to indoctrinate others to find support for my own faith, as opposed to simply seeking a balanced view of the Scripture, not emphasizing one portion of the Word over another. This is far more difficult than it may seem, and although I believe my intentions are good, my skill level at navigating through this effort is far inferior to many who may read this blog.
As always, your comments are appreciated and will be considered as they are delivered. Thanks again, and may your day be blessed
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Considering the Bible 
Revelation 20:10-15 proves that annihilation is a pipe dream.
The parable of the rich man- I know you would probably say oh it is a parable; but parables say something and what does that parable say?
It says persons that have passed on can’t come back and they are still cognizant and not sleeping in the grave and they are suffering. They are not annihilated.
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It is amazing that you know what I think before I respond.
This is becoming tiring.
You have every right to believe your pure doctrine. You should be proud of your accurate knowledge and ability to discern heretics and liars.
Enjoy being right.
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I’m getting the impression you don’t rely on the God breathed scriptures to formulate your beliefs.
Why do you attempt to divert the attention away from God’s word by getting personal instead of getting scriptural.
Shouldn’t I have the benefit of getting to know your accurate knowledge and ability to discern, so far, the evidently non scriptural belief of annihilation.
I really would like to know the scriptures that support that concept; so I can compare and contrast scripture.
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Go find a book on the topic. There are plenty out there.
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The Bible is sufficient when scripture supports itself
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Ok
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Keep reading your beliefs into the Bible and it will always give you the same answer. But in the multitude of counsellors there is wisdom
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When something is clear like the refutation of annihilation in the Bible, then why would you have to look any further unless you are trying to find a teacher to tickle your ears.
There are 66 books in the Bible with multiple writers. There are multiple counselors and witnesses all inspired by God. The scriptures support each other and the same ideas and are God breathed. I gave you 2 sets of scriptures in 2 different chapters in 2 different books with 2 different writers in the Bible that plainly say the unsaved are in conscious suffering before judgement and will be in torment day and night after judgement if not found in the book of life. The only counselors left are the ones that don’t like what is written in the scriptures.
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Using the same logic of two verses from two bible books and authors, baptism is required also. Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. Do not respond to this comment, stating I believe baptism is required for salvation. I do not.
I am simply stating that your reasoning is not accepted. Two verses do not prove or disprove any teaching.
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Baptism is totally irrelevant to the unscriptural idea of annihilations. You are presenting a non sequitur. If the Bible says you are thrown into the lake of fire and tormented day and night, I think a 2nd grader would understand the English sentence (Revelation 20:10-15) If a parable describes in 2nd grade English a rich man conscious and experiencing suffering after physical death and desiring to come back to warn his relatives, while we learn why he is there and that he can’t come back, do I change the simple meaning and English to suit my idea of the god that I have created in my own mind and not trust God’s word like Adam and Eve did not trust God’s word.
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Mark 16:16– Read the whole verse
16 The one believing and being baptized will be saved; but the one not believing will be condemned.
Acts 2:38
38 And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each one of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is expected and the fruit but if you read the last part of Mark 16:16 non belief is what condemns.
There are a lot of unregenerate people that get baptized that do not believe the Gospel.
The Gospel of Christ
God promises to save His people irrespective of man’s Will conditioned on Christ’s work and imputed righteousness alone without any effort from the ones He promised to save
Matthew 1:21 John 6:37-44 Romans 3,4,8,9,10,11 Ephesians 1,2
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Carl, have you read “Death and the afterlife” by Dr Robert Morey
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Dont think so
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It will take you through an extensive etymology breakdown that refutes annihilation and universalism
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Have you considered any studies that refute eternal torment?
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A little but Revelation 20 refutes annihilation
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Oh ok. What specifically have you read that refutes eternal torment?
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Hold on, If All Scripture is God breathed for example, Revelation 20:10-15, which refutes annihilation, why would we let an unregenerate writer of an outside book tell us something different.
It contextually says in Revelation 20 that the ones not found in the book of life will be tormented day and night along with the beast and the false prophet. Revelation 20:10-15 KJ3
And the devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled; and a place was not found for them.
12 And I saw the dead ones, the small ones and the great ones, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead ones were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead ones, the
ones in it. And death and hell gave up the dead ones, the ones in them. And they were each one judged according to their works.
14 And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire.
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Based on your initial statement, I should not consider Dr Moreys book.
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I read the book looking for the scriptures that interpret scriptures not things he might have said that weren’t necessarily consistent with scripture We judge everything according to scripture
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Other books are available for you to do the same, unless the topic has been judged by you to be heretical without hearing the arguments..
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I guess, you are ok ignoring scripture
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That is a logical leap. One more straw man erected to defame
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I gave you 2 scriptures and can get more please give me scripture for annihilation
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No thanks i am completely convinced you are not open to this discussion in any honesty, much like most of your comments for the past period.
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How can anyone ignore scripture and say they are open for discussion? Since you are ignoring scripture, you are not open for discussion. I’m open, if you give me scripture. I gave you 2 scriptural witnesses; so the ball is in your court
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Why did you block Paul from commenting?
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Did not block anyone.
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He must have comments in your spam detection or moderating program
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Please check your spam
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Then you must be moderating his comments or Mr Spam is 😂
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Nope. Never moderate. Not sure how that works..
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Oh well, I haven’t figured out WordPress yet but I don’t get comments 😂
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Mr. spam is doing it. I think the length of comment is causing it to be spam. Short comments are best.
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Have you settled on Romans 11:32
“That He may show mercy to all” means saving mercy to all – meaning Jew and now Gentile -bringing saving mercy to all.
You got off the original subject you never answered which saving mercy
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To be clear the “ that He may show mercy to all” The elect taken from Jew and Gentile
28 Indeed, as regards the gospel, ones hostile ( Jewish unbelievers) toward you (gentile believers), but as regards the election, beloved on account of the fathers.
29 For the free gifts and the calling of God are not to be repented of.
30 For as you then also disobeyed God, but now have obtained mercy by the disobedience of these,
31 so also these now have disobeyed, so that they also may obtain mercy by your mercy.
32 For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
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Is it saving mercy to all or non saving mercy to all ?There is nothing else
Please acknowledge which
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Kinda like you are avoiding the question I just asked. And I gave you an answer but you wont accept it
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Didn’t the scriptures say God hated Esau before he had done anything good or bad ? Why are you putting that on me for just repeating what the scripture said?
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Ok your answer to your question I re read it and understand it now
We and let me repeat We do not know who the reprobate are and therefore we do not discriminate on who we preach the gospel to and who we show love. Hopefully that will keep you from another red herring
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Your answer to the question above is silly; since there is an omniscient God who created all things and set things in stone before the foundation of world. All thoughts and actions are not unknown to God. They are known from before the foundation of the world because He predestined all things.
You believe God can’t interfere with man’s decision to come to the biblical Christ believing the true gospel and reach for Him. That guy is special that has that ability in contrast to the guy that doesn’t have that inherent wonder. How does one differ?
So since he can’t interfere with man’s will; then it is a crap shoot on God’s part who will come and it must be a crap shoot, since the Bible says he won’t come and if he won’t come, then he could have died for no one; Right?
If he knew who would come and believe in the totally sovereign God who controls all thoughts and actions, then he must have made the vessels of mercy and made the vessels fitted out for destruction as part of His plan determined from before the foundation of the world.
Anyway you slice it, freewill is a pompous act of man offered by the Serpent in the Garden of Eden “ You will be like God Knowing good and evil and Dying you shall not die”. God said “ Dying you shall die” we all as a descendant of Adam became liars proving spiritual death while running from the true God; but you say there are a few that will manage on their own to generate this wonderful knowledge of good and evil and come; but yet the Bible says only God is good and natural man doesn’t have the spirit to see anything. The serpent said he would have knowledge if he just ate the fruit and he did eat the fruit and now believes he is the center of the universe just like the delusion within Satan.
How does God get the glory in salvation when the sinner makes the difference and not the work and person of Jesus Christ?
How does Christ pay for the sins of anyone when he has to wait for a sinner that won’t come on his own. The freewill guy gets the glory because he inherently differed from the guy who didn’t.
The Bible says what makes you to differ and why do you boast if what you have was given to you just like it says in scripture.
Why don’t you see Free Will is a pipe dream that is not scriptural and biblically systematic?
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I don’t see where you responded to my question. Very interesting!
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Your question didn’t make sense to me So write a little more about free will systematic theology so I can obtain more detail
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I have to ask this question. Under your belief system, I’m understanding that Jesus Christ could have ended up dying for no one. Is that true?
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Jesus had committed followers before and during His life He died for, so your question is invalid.
One question for you.
Under your belief system, I understand Jesus Christ hates the lost and yet commands us to love them. Is that true?
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That last comment above is a mixed up
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How so. What is mixed up? My answer or the question about loving our enemies?
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Love your enemies Who is contradicting that but you? Speak the truth in Love. Teaching free will is not loving; since it isn’t part of Gospel that saves through Grace alone. If man plays any part in salvation through his effort or works then it isn’t by Grace. Remember if Adam and Eve couldn’t get it right; do you think a spiritually dead man a descendant of Adam after the fall can? Not according to scripture
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Is Jesus God?
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If course Jesus is God
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Of
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And Jesus was fully man
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Therefore Jesus hates some people according to your teaching
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My teaching? If it isn’t scripture, I’m willing to change. Did Jesus as a man hate? I don’t recall him using the term. Jesus knew that All the Father Gives to Him will come to Him.
Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Will of The Father. Was Jesus as a man relying on the Father? Yes, He came to seek and to save that which was lost and those people to be saved are the ones God promised to save and give to Him chosen from before the foundation of world.
He was both God and Man. Did God hate Esau? Yes. So, Jesus as God, did hate; since He and the Father are one; but as a man or incarnate, I don’t recall him using the term which makes you able to only speak from silence.
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You say God hates and Jesus hates, but Christian’s are commanded to love those God and Jesus hates? That is contradictory.
Why would we be told to love our enemies when we should hate our enemies if we are to follow God?
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It isn’t contradictory, Remember we are not gods; unless you think eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden gave the delusion.
Why would God tell us to hate anyone when we aren’t omniscient? We are all sinners on equal footing. We don’t know who are going to be called by God. We do not discriminate in preaching the gospel because God is in control.
God says He hates all workers of iniquity Psalms 5:5 God says He hates Esau unconditionally. Descendants of Adam are Children of Wrath John 3:36 says the wrath of God remains on those that don’t believe into the Son.
John 3:8 says God is in control of regeneration and Romans 9 says He has mercy on whom He wills and in Romans 9:16 says it is not by the will of man but by His mercy. Free Will contradicts scripture. If God says love then love by telling the truth. Let God be God. If He says He hates and tells us to love He can say that He is God.
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For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
So when Rom 8:29 states believers to be conformed to the image of the Son, when do christians get training in hating enemies like you say Jesus does?
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We are not God. Being conformed into the image of Jesus Christ still doesn’t make us God Jesus was God and Man. We will never be God. God hated Esau before he had done anything good or bad.
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No one said we are God. You continue to put words in my mouth. This is why I don’t respond often. You want to argue with someone other than I.
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I’m trying to point out which you are not focusing on; the fact that God hated Esau unconditionally. Notice the word God not Jesus. Jesus said He came to seek and to save that which was lost. That sounds like the messiah talking. I don’t recall Jesus using the word hate. God’s elect are being conformed into the image of Jesus Christ; that does not make us into God; The one who hated Esau from before the foundation of the world in terms of reprobation. Why are you using the function of the messiah to confuse the issue of God hating Esau. I was not saying you think we are God I was comparing and contrasting scripture. Please understand what the scripture is saying and not that I’m saying you think we are God. I’m using the scripture to point out that we will never be in a position to hate unconditionally to determine reprobation. Reprobation and election were in the hands of the Father not the messiah at time The word was God became flesh. Remember, Jesus said All the Father gives to Me ( the messiah)Will come to Me, (Jesus) which I conclude that all that the Father does not give to Me will not come. Please notice the election and reprobation were in the Father’s hands; the One who hated Esau unconditionally from before the foundation of the world. Remember when Jesus the man said Father give Me back the glory which I had with the before the world was John 17:5
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So I think you are saying that Jesus isn’t God in some way.
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You have to stop diverting like the watchtower’s representatives. I was very clear on what I was saying and your are once again equivocating on what I’m saying. You are back to diverting attention to the issue. You know I never said that Jesus wasn’t God.
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Associating me with a cult is very persuasive. Because of this, I now fully believe everything you say.
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You shouldn’t have said that I’m trying to say Jesus isn’t God That is what they say
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Then you admit Jesus (who is God) hates a lot of people
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You are not paying attention to scripture listen to what it says Did Jesus know the time of His return He was God and should have known Pay attention to the fact he was Gid and Man
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Did Jesus know the time of His return?
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John 10:26
But you do not believe, for you are not of My sheep, even as I said to you.
Would you attribute hate to Jesus per this account in the verse above?
They could not believe because they weren’t generated sovereignly from above by God the Father John 3:8
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Paul wants to make a comment
Post this comment
Carl,
You have gone way off course from the subject that we have been discussing.
The subject has been “God mercying all.”
You refuse to define this mercy in Romans 11:32.
It’s either a saving mercy or a non saving mercy on all.
You know that your false doctrine has been exposed at this point and this is why you refuse to answer. Let me explain for your readers because you think your slick.
1) If you define this as a saving mercy- then you must be a universalist and your false god must save everyone that has lived, is living now, and ever will live. You cannot define it this way because you don’t believe that every person (your definition of “all”) will be saved. So if you define it as a saving mercy and God doesn’t save everyone you know this is FALSE DOCTRINE!
2) If you define it as non saving mercy- then you contradict the apostles entire message of God’s saving mercy toward His elect which is what the apostle has been arguing in chapters 8-11 as you very well know. Specifically Romans 11 which is speaking of the gentiles being grafting into the people of God and he calls this “salvation” in 11:1. Gods mercy towards the “all” results in their SALVATION! So if you define it as a non saving mercy you know it is FALSE DOCTRINE!
Carl- choose what definition your “free will” desires but either way you prove you are a false teacher and a heretic.
I will be happy to correct you on the doctrine of “loving your enemy” as the Bible defines it, but ONLY after you define the “mercy” in Romans 11:32.
Paul
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What is non saving mercy?
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Since we don’t know what non saving mercy is, we can conclude Paul meant mercy showed to “all” in accordance with the Greek word 1653 definition, it is applied mercy to “all”, and must mean saving mercy to all; since it is applied to “all”
Since each individual in the world will not be saved; the “all” must be categorical; (Jew and Gentile ) and not every individual that has ever lived, is living or will live; but only those given by the father to Jesus John 6:37-44 are shown mercy and given eternal life, in which the categorical understanding of “all “is also supported in Revelation 7:9 “ every nation, even tribes and peoples and languages”.
We can safely insert (Jew and Gentile) in place of “every nation, even tribes, and peoples and languages”The Greek word 1653 doesn’t allow for a mere possibility or desire to show mercy by God; but is definite to “all”. It can only mean Jew and Gentile or it can be described by the phrase in Revelation 7:9 The “all” shown saving mercy is a set of people from Jew and Gentile
Revelation 7:9
After these things I saw, and behold, a large multitude which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and languages, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches
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Which one did you agree to ?
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You should have the answer on the tip of your tongue quick to respond
Saving mercy or non saving mercy?
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I agree
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Here is a parting question you must answer; so we know
Is the mercy that God is showing all …a saving mercy or a non saving mercy in Romans 11
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Please answer the question above
Is the mercy that God is showing all a saving mercy or a non saving mercy in Romans 11?
Your answer will clear up everything that is now in the area of causing confusion
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The Apostle Paul by saying “that He may show mercy to all” was a statement made to demonstrate he was including Gentiles now along with the Jews when he said
Roman 11:32
For God shut up all ( Jew and Gentile) into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all ( Jew and Gentile).
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Paul didn’t say “both jew and gentile”, he said all. Again you are inserting words.
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Read the context in Romans chapter 11 again and tell me who the “all” is
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You have told me by inserting words in the text.
I will not offer any further understanding other than Paul said all for both the disobedient ones who and the ones to whom mercy will be shown.
I fear this has become an endless argument over debatable interpretations of Roman’s 9 – 11.
I hope you and Paul enjoy your fellowship with the Lord and His people, (all His people).
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You have not defined “all” from using the context which is normally where you leave by not letting us know. You never commit. You think by not answering you can leave it open for the meaning not within the Greek or context
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It is not debatable if you let scripture interpret scripture; letting the Greek and context speak and if you are systematic. God is the Potter; we are the clay. God knows exactly what He has and will create. It can’t be any other way; since He is God. Free Will is an impossibility. The Serpent lied
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The apostle explains that there is a remnant of believers within the nation of Israel.
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Consequently, Esau wasn’t a person that God chose unconditionally to mercy; since He has mercy on whom He wills; unconditionally and hardens whom He wills unconditionally Romans 9:15,16,18
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I suppose your statement implies the hardening to be irreversible and permanent
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I think you are implying that Esau can reverse God’s hardening and He wasn’t a reprobate?
Proverbs 21:1
As streams of waters, the king’s heart is in the hand of Jehovah; He extends it wherever He desires.
Job 23:13
But He is in one mind,and who can turn Him? Yea, His soul desires, and He does it.
Daniel 4:35
And all those living in the earth are counted as nothing. And He does according to His will among the army of Heaven, and among those living in the earth. And no one is able to strike His hand or say to Him, What are You doing?
John 6:37
All who the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will not cast out, not ever,
Genesis 2:17
but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day of the eating of it, dying you shall die.
Romans 3:10-12
according as it is written, “There is not a righteous one, not even one!”
11 “There is not one understanding, there is not one seeking God.”
12 All turned aside; together they became worthless, not one is doing goodness, not so much as one!”
1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the Word of the cross is foolishness to the ones perishing, but to us being saved it is the power of God.
John 3:8
The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.
John 6:44
No one is able to come to me if not the Father, the One having sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day
John 6:65
And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
John 10:26
But you do not believe, for you are not of My sheep, even as I said to you.
Romans 9:8
That is: not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
Romans 9:11
11 for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,
Romans 9:13
even as it has been written, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”
Romans 9:14-
14 ¶ What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!
15 For He said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I pity.” Ex. 33:19
16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, or of the one running, but of the One having mercy, of God.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might show forth My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth.” Ex. 9:16
18 So, then, to whom He wills, He shows mercy; but to whom He wills, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 Nay, rather, O man, who are you, the one answering back to God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?
Jer. 18:6
22 But if God, desiring to display wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also out of nations.
25 ¶ As also He says in Hosea, I will call the ones Not My People, My People! And the ones Not Being Loved, Being Loved! Hosea 2:23
26 “And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are Not My people, there they will be called, “Sons of the Living God.” LXX-Hos. 2:1; MT-Hos. 2:23
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Nope. That is not my implication. I am not asking who, but if
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To simply answer No according to scripture
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“I suppose your statement implies the hardening to be irreversible and permanent” actually the simple answer to your question is YES it is irreversible and permanent using scripture as the frame of reference
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You certainly seek to flood the comments with verse lists,
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Scripture answers
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Back to Romans 11:32
32 For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all
Who are the “All”?
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All is the all
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True but which All
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“ That He may show mercy to All”
Which All?
All individual persons, All peoples,
All Jew and Gentile, All Jew and Gentile Elect, All The Children of Promise, All The Elect,
All Jews, All Gentiles, All the lost,
All people chosen from every nation, even tribes, peoples and languages, The unconditionally chosen from before the foundation of the world, All Spiritual Israel
I most likely missed a few “ All” labels
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Good question. Is there anything in the immediate context that would suggest one of your “alls”?
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Yes
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Carl,
You state in your explanation of Romans 11:32 that God “desires” to mercy all.
Can you please tell me what Bible version uses the word “desires” in this verse and what Greek manuscript is being used for that translation. ???
Because according to my knowledge I’m not aware of any greek manuscript that uses the word “desires” in the text.
I’ve already corrected you on this and you are being dishonest at this point and you continue to keep it posted as if it’s a fact.
The Greek word in this text is [ ἐλεήσῃ ] and it does not mean “desire”. This is an active verb and it’s something God does- He shows mercy. The word “desire” is nowhere within the text or in its meaning.
Since you make the claim to be a “Christian” you really need to pull this translation off your website. Because you are not being honest and by posting this twisted transliteration of Gods word you are posting a lie.
Paul
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What translation are you speaking of?
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Carl,
I will quote what you wrote in your original argument.
“Romans 11:32 tells us of the intent of God consigning all to disobedience. He desires to have mercy on all.
Following are a number of translations for the reader to consider of Romans 11:32, in order to quell any doubt as to the intent of the apostle”
Notice that you say “He DESIRES to have mercy on all.
You then list different translations and NONE of them use the word “desires”.
So why are you misrepresenting the apostles words and misquoting the passage by inserting the word “desires” when it is not in the text?
Where did you get this translation?
Paul
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So according to you. inserting words into the text to interpret a verse should never be done, and misrepresents the passage?
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I don’t believe inserting a synonym is the issue. Changing the meaning of the verse by inserting a word that changes the meaning to support free will is a distortion and attempt to change the truth
Romans 11:32
For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (KJ3)
Your quote from your post
“Romans 11:32 tells us of the intent of God consigning all to disobedience. He desires to have mercy on all.”
God does not from what I read say …”He desires to have mercy on all.” It says …”that He may show mercy to all”
I believe Paul said the Greek means The showing of mercy is a definite act of showing mercy on all
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Carl, you haven’t resolved your insertion and interjection of “ He desires to have mercy on all” Referencing Romans 11:32 You were too busy at work; but yet you have since submitted new posts without answering or resolving the last issue on Why you used “He desires to have mercy on all” (every individual implied) but He obviously can’t fulfill His desire even though the Bible says he does all His desires Job 23:13 So your insertion contradicts scripture and the Greek
Romans 11:32
For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
God
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You didn’t intend to sign this message as God did you?
I suppose if “may have mercy” doesn’t imply a desire to have mercy, what does it mean? Maybe a simple allowance to have mercy by a God that hates those whom He is allowed to have mercy upon?
That don’t make no sense.
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No of course not I didn’t see that until I sent it
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I have new posts scheduled months ahead.
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Well that answers that issue
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Carl,
You ask- “So according to you. inserting words into the text to interpret a verse should never be done, and misrepresents the passage?”
You know very well that “interpretation” of the Greek text is very different than “transliteration” of the Greek text. I said nothing of “interpretation” so please stop trying to twist what I said because this is what you false teachers do with the word of God all day long.
And if you don’t know the difference between “translation” and “interpretation” you shouldn’t be teaching the Holy Scriptures to your own children.
You know what kind of “sly” move you made when you misquoted what the apostle has stated. Your a wolf in sheep’s clothing!
Carl- you didn’t only insert a word to interpret a text, you blatantly and dishonestly “misquoted” what God has said.
No one, including you, has the right to insert or take away words in someone else’s letter in order to misrepresent the author. This is exactly why I have been calling you (and your leaders) false teachers. You have a double standard for sure and all your readers see it glowing like the sun. If you wrote a letter to your wife and someone “inserted” a word that misrepresents what you said or took a word away in order to misrepresent your letter to her- you would call it dishonest. But it’s ok for you to do it to God.
The scary part is that you really see nothing wrong with “misquoting” Paul in order to misrepresent what God has said. The word “desire” is nowhere to be understood in Romans 11:32 neither in the “translation” nor in the “interpretation.”
Inserting the words “God desires” as a translation into Romans 11:32 in order to deceive the reader is a lie from the pit of hell and you heartily do it to please your father the devil, just as Jesus said- “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:43-44 ESV
You are being exposed just like the rest who have done the same to Pauline letters, liars like you are nothing new, as the apostle Peter said-
“as he (apostle Paul) does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” 2 Peter 3:16 ESV
Paul
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Yes, since we are talking about one person that God hates and not “ All” in Romans 9:13, we can safely say God hates Esau unconditionally; since, it says that blatantly if we take into account and pay attention to the context using Romans 9:11 where it says God hated Esau before he had done anything good or bad; which must be before creation; making God’s hatred unconditional.
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Carl,
You ask:
I suppose if “may have mercy” doesn’t imply a desire to have mercy, what does it mean?
Answer by Paul:
The English word “desire” means or alludes to “wishing for something to happen.” As if God hopes to mercy but can’t fulfill it because the persons free will thwarts and overrides Gods desire.
You believe that your god based upon this English word desire is “wishing for mans free will to respond to god so he can show mercy to everyone.” Your god desires and wishes to have saving mercy upon every person that has lived, is living now and ever will live, but fails to fulfill his desire because mans free will thwarts and trumps his purpose to save.
So no, you cannot use this English word for your twisted Arminian view of Paul’s Greek word (ἐλεήσῃ) which means a definite obtaining of saving mercy by God to “all” whom He has elected to save. The Greek word means God does not fail in this action to “mercy” because it is an active verb an action of God which He most definitely accomplishes.
You say: Maybe a simple allowance to have mercy by a God that hates those whom He is allowed to have mercy upon? (Emphases mine: This is ridiculous so not even an option.)
That don’t make no sense.(e.m.: rightly said because this is ridiculous)
Now Please stop running from answering the following question:
Carl, is this a saving mercy that God is pouring out upon “all”?
This will help everyone understand what kind of doctrine you are teaching.
Paul
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I agree, Paul
The verse says God is showing executed mercy to all ( Jew and now Gentile) He is not desiring to show mercy and waiting for a response from man; Romans 9:16 supports His showing executed mercy “ So, then, to whom He wills, He shows mercy”
Perfect harmony between Romans 9 and Romans 11
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Executed? Who is inserting words into the message now?
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Showing mercy means he executed mercy or it was a definite act of mercy on them
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Who is inserting words into the text now?
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I didn’t contradict the meaning; but you did Showing mercy to all” is different than “desiring to show mercy to all” You are trying too hard !
Showing mercy Executing mercy the point didn’t change
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Oh. Seems like you are allowed to enhance the meaning but I get called out on it. Oh right it doesn’t fit your teaching. I forgot- sorry….
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Showing mercy is a definite act according to the Greek word I didn’t change the Greek word meaning like you did with the word “desiring “ to show mercy which fits your theology of putting salvation in the hands of man
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Ok, I agree, I think it would have been better if I would have just stuck to “that He may show mercy to all”
I was just hoping you would see the showing mercy to all was effectual and definite to all not merely a desiring to show mercy as you desire
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Romans 11:32
For God shut up all ( Jew and Gentile) into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all ( Jew and Gentile).
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I didn’t insert… I used a word “execute” to describe the act of definitely showing mercy. It had a similar meaning to “showing” or acting out mercy
In your case “showing” doesn’t have a similar meaning to “desiring”
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Executed – carry out or put into effect (a plan, order, or course of action):
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If you let Romans 11:32 stand alone without assistance from other scripture or let scripture interpret scripture, I can understand how one could desire and be misled to see the “ All” to mean every single individual created.
Romans 11:32
For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
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If you let Romans 9:13 stand alone without assistance from other scripture or let scripture interpret scripture, I can understand how one could desire and be misled to see that “God hates people”.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
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I don’t interpret Romans 9:13 by itself
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Oh ok
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In Romans 11:32, is this a saving “mercy”? In other words, is this Gods saving “mercy” that He will pour out upon ALL persons? We need to know who the “all” is
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Yes Carl, please tell us your not a “universalist” meaning the God of the Bible saves everyone- ALL. Please tell us that you don’t believe God is “mercying” ALL (every person living in the world).
Please explain and teach your readers who you believe that God is mercying in Romans 11:32. Carl, tell us who this group called “ALL” the apostle Paul is referring to when he says, “ ἵνα τοὺς πάντας ἐλεήσῃ“
And let me remind you that the Greek verb 1653 “Eleeo” is defined by Strongs as “to have pity or mercy on, to show mercy”.
Cognate: 1653 eleéō – to show mercy as God defines it, i.e. as it accords with His truth (covenant) which expresses “God’s covenant-loyalty-mercy” (i.e. acting only on His terms). See 1656 (eleos).
Emphasis mine: this is Gods covenant mercy or New Covenant saving mercy.
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I noticed the same Greek word 1653 is used in Romans 9:15 Romans 9:16 Romans 9:18 and these verses if I’m understanding the English translation correctly reveals God chooses to mercy whom He wills and hardens whom He wills. It doesn’t appear He is showing mercy to every single individual that has ever lived is living and will live since some end up condemned. I would have to conclude He is not showing mercy to “ all” individuals and the “All” must mean something else other than every single individual.
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Ajwalk- you are correct in saying the “all” cannot mean every single person that has ever lived, is living now, and ever will live.
The apostle has been explaining how God has brought about a partial hardening upon the people of Israel/Jews. Notice it is a partial hardening which means there is always a remnant of believing Jews. And God will do this until the fullness of the Gentile elect have been grafted into the olive tree.
The apostle is explaining how God is going to save His elect out of the nation of Israel. He will cause a jealousy to burn inside of both Jews and Gentiles and in this way He is going to save His people. The “all” means Jews and Gentiles. But of course it can’t mean every single Jew and every single Gentile because not every person will believe the Gospel. Surely many will perish and be cast into hell fire.
At this point I must stop and say we don’t know if Carl believes people will even be cast into hell fire or if he believes “all” or “every person” will be mercyed/saved, because he refuses to be specific as to who these “all” are in Romans 11:32. All he can say is, “all” means “all”, whatever that means. Classic Arminian double talk nonsense.
Back to Exegesis of Romans 11.
Notice what he says:
“in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.”
Romans 11:14, 18-20 ESV
“For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.”
Romans 11:30-32 ESV
So the understanding of Verse 11 is as follows and I’ve italicized Jew and Gentile for a better understanding how Paul meant his readers to u see stand his point.
“For God has consigned all (Jews and Gentiles) to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Jews and Gentiles).” Romans 11:32 ESV
The apostle is saying- God assigned Gentiles to disobedience and He also assigned Jews to disobedience. The Gentiles have received mercy because of the Jewish hardening. And now that the Gentiles are being mercyed by God the natural branches (Jews) see it and now they too want to be grafted back into their own olive tree (see v24). God is causing jealousy in Jews and Gentiles in order to save the full number of His elect out of both.
Now back to our friend Carl who is considering the Bible together with us. Carl, are you teaching a form of universal redemption, mainly that God is saving “all” or everyone and no person will be cast into hell fire? I don’t want to assume your position. Who are the “all” being shown mercy by God in Romans 11:32 ?
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Paul gave the contextual interpretation of Romans 11 and 11:32
The “All”mercied do not just come out of the Jews; but also come out of the Gentiles.
This is in harmony with
Roman 9
Jew and Gentile,
The Children of Promise,
The Elect
The Children of God reckoned as a Seed
Revelation 7:9
After these things I saw, and behold, a large multitude which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and languages, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches
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Carl, Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, please explain from scripture
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You know guys I am swamped at work and will get a response to you soon, but would appreciate your patience.
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So there is an elect in the nation of Israel that god elected?
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There is a remnant of Jews that have been sovereignly chosen by God to whom He will show saving mercy within the nation of Israel. Just as God chose the remnant throughout Israel’s history He is doing the same.
“Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.””
1 Kings 19:18 ESV
And you will say to me, “why does he still find fault, for who can resist His Will”
Just as God is saving remnants of Jews He is saving a portion of the Gentiles to fulfill His promise when He brings both together Jew and Gentile to save All of Israel or The Children of Promise
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