The prophecy of the Lord Jesus for our consideration and edification, written centuries prior to His earthly existence is
| Prophecy #38 |
| Description |
| The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up |
| Old Testament Prophecy |
| Numbers 21:9 |
| So Moses made a bronze[a] serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. |
| New Testament Fullfillment |
| John 3:14-18 |
| And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. |
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351 Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ
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Sorry I should have and meant to write” hated” not created Esau before the foundation
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Since you appear to agree that the scripture Romans 9:16 says “not by the one who wills” means individual then we can conclude that it is only by God’s mercy that a natural man is saved and not by the will of the man
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Just to confirm the phrase in Romans 9:16 “not of the ONE willing” my emphasis singular human
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You must be agreeing with me unless I’m confused that God meant individual Will when said “not of the one willing” Actually that phrase proves individual will
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Carl,
Since your believe that Jesus bore the wrath of the Father on the cross for the non elect who will burn in hell. Please explain the following:
1) Since Jehovah knows ALL things perfectly from the beginning to the end and on into eternity, why would the Father pour out His wrath on His Son for the non elect whom He knows will never believe in Him? What purpose does it serve?
And
2) If the Son bore the shame of every single sin of the non elect whom will burn in hell for all eternity, why does Jehovah cast them into hell? You will say, because of “unbelief”. Is “unbelief” a sin? You must say yes, for you believe that those who go to hell are committed to that state because of the “sin of unbelief.” To this I say, either Jesus bore the wrath of the Father for ALL the sins which includes the sin of unbelief or He didn’t and left it out. Either way you answer – you contradict Scripture and those who walk with you believe in the same heresy.
We all would love to hear you answer these two questions.
Paul
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Your quote:
“Who is receiving the mercy? This, in my opinion, is the crux of the matter. Does this passage refer to individuals or nations, that is corporate entities?”
Romans 9:16 – So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy
Does the verse say His mercy does not depend on the will of a nation?
No, it does not say His mercy is dependent on the will of a nation Israel or the will of a corporate entity
The verse says His mercy does not depend on human will
So I’m not in anyway convinced from scripture that God is talking about nations; but I’m convinced from scripture that He is talking about “human will” as individuals and I’m not convinced by this passage only; but by the context of Romans 9 that says in Romans 9:21 that God has the right to make out of the same lump one vessel ( human individual ) to honor and make one vessel (human individual )to dishonor
Scripture will interpret scripture which supersedes human reasoning and the desire to support Free Will
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Understand your position AJ and appreciate the comment.
I suppose one considerstion is on the “human will” comment is if it can be defined as a singular as opposed to a plural will in the greek. Not sure if this is even available to find out and I’m not smart enough to know where to look.
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I think Roman 9:21 defines it for us among other verses in the chapter The parallel came to mind
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Here is another thought considering your view that the “human will” is a corporate will or a nation’s will in Romans 9 and if it was a corporate or nation’s Will which makes no scriptural sense to me, wouldn’t God be violating your premise that each individual person must have a free will? The poor edomites or Gentiles or whatever you want to call them; they had no say and were subjected to the result of the hatred of Esau. Their individual freedom would be violated by God, once again. This whole scenario seems to violate your conditional belief system that man must have a“free will”
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Could not a gentile / edomite enter into covenant with the God of Israel upon choosing to?
The nation was never restricted to only the blood line of abraham.
Examples in the OT would be Ruth, or the harlot in Jericho. I’m sure there are others.
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I might be confused I thought we were trying to determine if “ human will” was singular or a corporate or nation will?
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I think you are saying that only Esau was hated; then, especially, if you think that any of the edomites could enter into a covenant with God. This would support the meaning of “not by the one willing” as being individual and not corporate in Romans 9:16
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Just to be clear, I think Esau was hated in the same way I am told to hate my wife
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That would fine if God hadn’t hated Esau before he did anything good or bad and before creation
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God doesn’t answer to anyone, we do , so your comparison of hate doesn’t fit. It wouldn’t apply. He created Esau before the foundation of the world. The point is God unconditionally chooses to mercy based on His purpose and will and unconditionally hardens in order to show the riches of His glory on unconditionally chosen vessels of mercy and he makes both vessels. He can’t make a vessel with “free” will since he is omniscient
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Where does the bible say God created esau before foundation of the world?
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I think I wrote God hated Esau before the foundation of the world not created 😂
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Dang spell check. Your right.
Where does the Bible teach that Hod hated Esau before the foundation of the world?
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When God says he chose and elected Jacob and Esau before they had done anything good or bad In Romans 9
When did that take place?
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That is my question. Where are we informed that the decision was made before the foundation of the world.
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It is simply stated before the kids had done anything good or bad The only time that could happen is before creation
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I asked these 2 questions this morning at the laundromat to a gentleman named Brad.
He answered in less than 30 seconds.
Question 1
If God chose and elected Jacob and Esau before they had done anything good or bad, when was this?
Answer from Brad : Before creation
Question 2
Was God’s choosing and electing conditional or unconditional?
Answer from Brad: unconditional
This is not rocket science; it is biblical
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It is not rocket science. That is correct.
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Couldn’t it happen 5 minutes before conception?
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I take for granted you are trying to hold on to some kind of autonomy or free will for man; but 5 or 10 minutes or 20 minutes before creation doesn’t make a difference; there is no time before the created world.
God planned all and ordained all; that is why He said before they did anything good or bad, so everyone would know that He chooses and elects vessels of mercy and vessels fitted out for destruction unconditionally and in the other verses He says He makes both vessels they don’t make themselves. Free Will is a doctrine of demons because Lucifer said I will be liken to the most high and The Serpent told Eve you will be like God. You just don’t want to believe that we are not the potter; but the clay Did The Apostle Paul pray to God for the salvation of the unsaved Israelites? Did the Apostle Paul ask to be converted? This is not rocket science, It is the Bible
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I meant 5 or 10 minutes before conception of the twins
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Please explain why that is significant?
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With all that has transpired via the interpretation of scriptures Romans 9:16 and John 3:16, Is it apparent that God loves His unconditional elect only and He mercies individuals unconditionally not based on their Will but on His unconditional mercy?
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Then your complaint would be the same as the objector “ who can resist His will?” “Why did you make me like this?”
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Are you trying to determine what Jesus should pray for?
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You still didn’t answer why Jesus didn’t pray for the salvation of the ones you claim God loves? It amazes me how you can believe man is so powerful and his will rules over the God who can’t save; since you believe he can’t save an unwilling sinner
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Carl,
You ask if the Greek can be parsed? Yes I will parse it here for you since you do not understand the Greek language.
I will tell your readers that the Greek phrase in Romans 9:16, specifically the words – it depends NOT “of the willing” or the literal transliteration is “so then, not of the willing,”
The words “tou (of the) thelontos (willing)”
Let us parse it in the Greek and you can ask any Greek scholar and he will agree with me 💯 Any Greek Bible app will tell you the same information and as a matter of fact in Bible Hub if you click on “interlinear” the Greek and English words will be on top of each other and the “parse” will be there as “Art-GMS” this stands for genetive middle singular
τοῦ is an article – in the Genitive case/ middle voice/ singular person
θέλοντος is a verb- present participle in the genitive middle singular
1st year Greek students will learn that the article goes with the verb so this is why the article and the verb are both in the “GMS” genitive middle singular.
So to answer this: yes in the Greek the the text specially refers to a singular person as it reads in the Greek- “so then it is not of the one willing (willing singular person), nor of the person (singular person) running, of God showing Mercy”
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You sure are smart
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What I believe isn’t really what I’m focusing on; but the focus is on how to resolve both scriptures taken into consideration where both are using the word “ world” and appear to have 2 different meanings on the surface unless we can find some other scripture or scriptures to resolve and make them compatible . I’m interested how you answer from scripture. Do you have any scripture or scriptures to resolve the contrast instead of human reasoning?
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If God so loved every individual in the world, wouldn’t Jesus pray for everyone He loved in John 17:9?
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No I’m not telling Jesus who he should pray for; but you are telling me He loves every single individual that has ever lived, is living and will live.
God has the power to save and He saves the ones to whom He will mercy irrespective of THEIR Will Romans 9 says that very plainly and He does it unconditionally because He created all things and He made you the way you are otherwise why would the objector say “ Why did you make me like this?
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John 3:16 KJ3
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life
Most interpret the above “world” “God so loved the world” (as every single individual is loved by God) but how do we interpret or resolve the apparent different definition of world since Jesus is not praying for every individual that they claim He loves in John 3:16
John 17:9
I ask concerning them; I do not ask concerning the world, but concerning the ones whom You have given to Me, because they
are Yours
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Carl,
Do you believe that the cross of Jesus Christ forgives the sins of every person without distinction. In other words, did Christ die on the cross and suffer the full wrath of the Father on behalf of every person who has ever lived, is living now, and ever will live- including those burning in torment at the moment?
Paul
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Do you believe love can be both one and two sides. By that I mean could someone love someone else without the love being returned?
God so loved every living soul, but many do not return the love. Those that return the love are the ones that are prayed for in John 17.
I don’t see where Jesus specifying a group of souls in John 17 excludes the remaining creation from the love of God. But your soteriology forces that distinction and is coloring passages we try discuss.
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Plus, I think I see that Paul asked you a question.
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Carl, I will take your answer as a yes since you don’t deny it. Please don’t answer with a question, because we are focusing on your teaching of the atonement which speaks of the love of the triune God.
I will briefly answer your question, yes I do believe that Scripture teaches that Jehovah loves His elect before the foundation of the world and that His elect once regenerated/given a new heart of flesh/given spiritual resurrection life, love Him in return.
Please show us where the Scriptures teach that God loves every living soul.
And yes we already have established that the unregenerate people hate the true and living God. This is not in question. You and I both believe this.
Carl, you say:” I don’t see where Jesus specifying a group of souls in John 17 excludes the remaining creation from the love of God.“
So you don’t see within these very words in John 17 that Jesus is specifically praying for the “ones that the Father gives to the Son” and that the world that hates him He excludes? He is specifically excluding the non elect unregenerate reprobate when He says “ I am not praying for the world (the non elect eternally lost reprobate) but for those whom you have given me (the elect), for they are yours.”
John 17:9 ESV
“When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.”
John 17:1-2 ESV
Notice who Jesus is praying for – “ALL WHOM YOU (the Father) HAVE GIVEN Him (the Son).
Where is the eternally lost reprobate who will never believe in Jesus? They are not here within Jesus’ prayer. He is NOT praying for the non elect eternally lost reprobate whom He knows perfectly will never ever believe in Him.
Jesus says, “I am not praying for them!”
Furthermore,
““I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.”
John 17:6-9 ESV
Notice that Jesus is specifically praying for “the people (the elect of God) whom you (the Father) gave me (the Son) out of the world.”
Notice that Jesus says, “I am praying for them (these are the elect of God whom God regenerates and gives a new heart).” And Jesus says, “I am NOT praying for the world (the non elect unregenerate eternally lost reprobate) but for those (the elect of God) whom you (the Father) have given me (the Son), for they (the elect) are yours (the Fathers).
I can exegete the entire passage if you’d like but it is unnecessary because what I’ve laid out here should suffice that Jesus is praying for the elect whom the triune God loves.
Jesus is EXCLUDING the non elect unregenerate lost reprobate when He says, “I am not praying for the world”.
Please tell us who these individuals are whom Jesus “is NOT praying for”?
please tell us Carl because you are contradicting Jesus’ own words.
Paul
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To answer your first question
“Do you believe love can be both one and two sides. By that I mean could someone love someone else without the love being returned?”
Scripture says God is Love. Scripture says The Holy Spirit is God. Scripture says The Holy Spirit is Love because scripture says God is Spirit.
Scripture says only God is good. Scripture says Natural man is void of the spirit and is not good He can’t discern spiritual things and he thinks spiritual things are foolishness.
The answer to your question is your question is really not a biblically coherent question because God loves and no Natural man is capable of returning love to the True Biblical God.
God must generate a new spirit and a new heart to whom He sovereignly to chooses from above. He needs to bring a dead spirit alive so the one dead can recognize the truth that he is was dead; but now alive; otherwise he will never recognize and reach for the True God asking for mercy whom He now loves after regeneration John 3:3,5,8
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If Jesus is not praying for the world in John 17:9 and the free will believers say “world” means every single individual who is living and has lived and will live and who also say that God loves every single individual in the world; and If we compare what they believe to what Jesus said particularly, that He is not praying for the world, but only for those the Father gives Him; then according to what the free willers believe, Jesus is not praying for all the ones that God loves; but only for the ones The Father has given Him who must be in actuality the only ones that God loves since The Father is only giving those Jews and Gentiles out of all humanity to Jesus and they are the only ones for whom Jesus is praying.
Then, we can’t conclude that world means in this context that God loves every single individual and world means every single individual that has lived or is living or will live.
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