As this blog has proceeded through a multiple of topics, I have received numerous comments and non more interesting than from a fellow blogger that finds my responses to his comments lacking in Scriptural support.
The topic of concern is the sovereignty of God and the Calvinist debate. He has denied the moniker of “Calvinist” but as some have said – A rose by any other name is still a rose.
This seems to be a common thread in the discussions, since his understanding of key terms in the topic seems to carry a different definition than mine. He also tends to “drop” Bible verses after his claims, intending to prove his point. This is a common method of argument that I have used too often, that is of peppering the discussion with proof texts.
Lately the following comment from my friend was provided and in response I wrote back “Job 1:1”. Figgered I would proof text him – it was an attempt to be a bit funny, but alas, even as I posted the response, I realized I needed to do better. (And responding in the comment section is sooo difficult.) Hence this side bar of posts to a comment within this topic.
Below is the comment I will be responding to through a series of posts in the following weeks.
You are always using Human reasoning instead of scripture. God can change and has to change a person’s will to be saved. Ezekiel 36:26 John 3:3-8 Romans 3:10-12 Psalms 14:1-3 even though you think he can’t interfere with natural man’s will and someone will have to tell me how one person believes the Gospel the true gospel that is and another doesn’t. No freewill advocate can give me an answer. They ignore that question. Scripture says God is sovereign in his decision to whom he will have mercy which is in accordance with Romans 9:16 and other scripture Romans 9:15,18 The natural man doesn’t come and can’t come 1 Corinthians 2:14 John 6:44 John 6:65 He doesn’t have the ability because he lacks spiritual discernment because he doesn’t have the spirit. God gave to the man Jesus the spirit without limit. God doesn’t give faith to everyone because He doesn’t want to according to Romans 9:16 John 1:12-13. He told the Pharisees you don’t believe because you aren’t my sheep John 10:26 He didn’t say you aren’t my sheep because you don’t believe That should kill the idea of free will on the spot. If you analyze the Garden of Eden account with Eve you will see the serpent was baiting Eve with free Will through the delusion of gaining the knowledge of good and evil which was a stone cold lie. Natural man can’t tell the difference between good and evil and Jesus said none are good except for God. They are responsible because God is Sovereign. He has the right to do with His creation as he sees fit His righteousness isn’t to be judged by fallen man’s sense of righteousness imputed from the Garden of Eden. Belief is the work of God John 6:29 If Adam and Eve weren’t able to get it right, how can you put such faith in a fallen nature that loves darkness instead of light. God is saving a people unconditionally Romans 9:11 according to election God promises to save a people and He can’t wait around for someone who has no desire or the ability to come. I will rely on scripture that he shows mercy unconditionally to whom he chooses.
In each of the following posts, I will be addressing a set of verses he refers to within a portion of his comment. I will attempt to supply context to his comments when required, and look forward to a hearty discussion as we venture through his concerns.
I do hope you will join me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
John 6:65 – And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
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As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the third portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
God gave to the man Jesus the spirit without limit. God doesn’t give faith to everyone because He doesn’t want to according to Romans 9:16 John 1:12-13.
Romans 9:16 – So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
John 1:12-13 – But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the fourth portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
He told the Pharisees you don’t believe because you aren’t my sheep John 10:26 He didn’t say you aren’t my sheep because you don’t believe That should kill the idea of free will on the spot. If you analyze the Garden of Eden account with Eve you will see the serpent was baiting Eve with free Will through the delusion of gaining the knowledge of good and evil which was a stone cold lie.
John 10:26 – but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Follow Considering the Bible on WordPress.com
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the fifth portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
Natural man can’t tell the difference between good and evil and Jesus said none are good except for God. They are responsible because God is Sovereign. He has the right to do with His creation as he sees fit His righteousness isn’t to be judged by fallen man’s sense of righteousness imputed from the Garden of Eden. Belief is the work of God John 6:29
John 6:29 – Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Follow Considering the Bible on WordPress.com
As mentioned in the introduction, I have been been discussing the differences between Calvinism and Provisionalism with a fellow blogger. One particular response grabbed my attention and I am trying to understand his position, by referring to his proof texts and logic.
This is the sixth (and final) portion of his response (in red), along with the corresponding verses he referred to. I shall seek to comment on the verses and find his argument within the verses he has provided.
God is saving a people unconditionally Romans 9:11 according to election God promises to save a people and He can’t wait around for someone who has no desire or the ability to come. I will rely on scripture that he shows mercy unconditionally to whom he chooses.
Romans 9:11 – though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls–
I do hope you will continue with me as I seek to understand the verses he supplies and if the verses he supplied support his argument of fatalism/determinism which he speaks of.
Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Considering the Bible 
There are only two real positions. The host is an “Open theist” and you are a “determinist”. The host cannot have his cake and eat it to. Otherwise he immediately confirms a contradictory position and the debate is over.
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What is the contradictory position? Seems like you are supplying a false dichotomy. But I think that is a defensive mechanism when one wants to stifle debate.
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I’ve tried debating you several times on this subject and you run as fast as you can, and never deal with my positive presentation of Gods sovereignty within the framework of my biblical world view (determinism). Your large words mean nothing to me and are empty. So I will ask you once again.
What biblical philosophical world view are you defending?
James White’s (you hate James White) position is compatibilism. This position is contrary to Flowers’ position so you can’t possibly be taking this position. The other is Open Theism which you deny. And the last position is what I (and doubleajwalk) defend – determinism.
So please let your opponent know what positive position you are defending. The debate will be much more fruitful when everyone knows what positions are being defended.
Paul
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I look to have a Christian world view, trying to understand the message of the Son of God through the written Word.
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“You look to have” a Christian view. Does that mean you haven’t developed a Christian view from scripture yet?
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Growth in the Christian’s faith demands continual willingness to change my views to Christ’s views. I will readily admit I am not as mature in the faith as many of my brothers. I have reconsidered a number of secondary teachings finding them lacking in scriptural support, and due to that, abandoned those teachings. Those teachings do not define a christian. A Christian is a Christ follower, not a defender of any position.
They shall know them by their love
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“Growth in the Christian’s faith” without defining what Gospel you have faith in doesn’t separate you from the gospel a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness believe. We cannot determine who are brothers are or determine whether someone is regenerate or unregenerate without this knowledge according to scripture. Mark 16:16 Romans 10:1-4
So, we still don’t know what you believe. Using the term love doesn’t determine anything. God is love. The Holy Spirit is Love. He that has the spirit can love. He that does not have the spirit cannot love. The one that believes the True Gospel has the spirit. The person that does not believe the true gospel does not have the spirit. Scripturally, we don’t know what Gospel you believe. Is it a Gospel conditioned on man or one that is conditioned on Christ alone? Leighton Flower’s Gospel depends on what man does or a self generated response from what I understand.
It appears this is where you lean; but you haven’t confirmed that directly.
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Doubleajwalk – Are you a Calvinist? a five point Calvinist?
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No
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Oh – That is interesting that you will not identify your position.
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I’m one that judges the saved and the lost by whether one believes the Gospel of Grace that salvation is conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ and his imputed righteousness alone without any effort from His people He chose unconditionally and promised to save; His people that He substituted for in payment and punishment of their sin when He shed His atoning blood and imputed His perfect righteousness. His shed blood and imputed righteousness demands, ensures and guarantees the salvation of His people from regeneration to final glorification based on Christ’s work and person alone.
I believe God promises to save only His people that Jesus died for who were given to Jesus by The Father. Jesus only died and paid for the sins of His unconditionally chosen vessels of mercy from before the foundation of the world.
His people were unconditionally chosen and are being made by Him into vessels of mercy. They will be generated from above by the sovereign gift of His spirit unto belief of the Gospel of Grace.
Once regenerated, they will never perish and will never believe or confess a false gospel. Sin deserves everlasting punishment in hell. Regeneration by God brings a change of state or position with God and a change of heart. God preserves everyone He regenerates.
The Lord will give His people that He died for eternal life, preserve them in that life and raise them up in the last day conditioned on Jesus Christ’s work alone.
God saves His people in a way that satisfies His Law and justice. He is a just God and a Savior. He is just, justifier and a Savior.
Jesus Christ The Word was God became flesh was Fully God, Fully Man. God The Father raised Jesus from the dead on the 3rd day according to the scriptures demonstrating that He successfully completed His work of saving His people as their substitute.
God works the willing and the doing in His people for His good pleasure. He promises to complete that work and promises they will not be lost.
God wants to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known on vessels unconditionally chosen by Him that He fits out and makes for destruction.
God makes these vessels fitted out for destruction to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known in order to show the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy that He makes that are before prepared for glory.
God determined and controls all thoughts, words and deeds or in other words all things from before the foundation of the world. God works all things for His glory and the benefit of His elect, The children of Promise. God is all powerful and able to keep all His promises. God’s saving power is irresistible.
Natural man is dead in sins and trespasses and is at enmity with God and cannot please God; a result of Adam’s sin being imputed to those whom he represented as their head.
All these vessels whether of mercy or destruction were chosen unconditionally from before the foundation of the world.
I have previously supplied the biblical scriptures to support this Gospel of Grace
I have posted a few scriptures below revealing that God must shine into the heart the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and that we have nothing to give God that he doesn’t give first to the unconditionally chosen vessels of mercy from before the foundation of the world.
2 Corinthians 4:6
Because it is God who said, “Out of darkness Light shall shine,” the One who shone in our hearts to give the illumination of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Isa. 42:6, 7, 16
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into
Him whom that One sent.
John 6:65
And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
1 Corinthians 4:7
For who makes you to differ? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as not receiving it?
John 3:27
John answered and said, A man is able to receive nothing if it is not given to him from Heaven.
Please let us know where you position your understanding of the Gospel of Grace that saves. One last comment “Free Will” is a doctrine of devils
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Oh I see. You are the one who judges…
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The scripture judges. There isn’t anything listed that can’t be supported by scripture; but I do like your comment and I’m still hoping you would take the scriptures and line them up systematically starting with God’s sovereign decision to give his spirit to whom he unconditionally chooses in John 3:3,5,8
“The Spirit goes where it desires”
Can I say based on Romans 9:16 to whomever he decides to mercy?
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I see. You don’t judge? Ok
Although not an expert on Calvinism (I was in that teaching for a little under a decade), everything you provided in your previous description seems to make you a five point Calvinist. I understand if you do not want to be classified (or called) a Calvinist – that is fine. But you do espouse many of the teachings they preach.
Please provide the reason I am to start with “God’s sovereign decision to give his spirit to whom he unconditionally chooses” when I read the Word of God. I am of the opinion that starting with a preconceived notion prior to opening the Word is detrimental to understanding the message He is trying to communicate to me.
In response to your last question, Can I say that God wants to show mercy on all? Romans 11:32
Thanks for your comment
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Who are the “all” in Romans 11:32?
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I will ask again who are the “All” in Romans 11:32 that you refer to as supporting you position of “free will”; since it appears from my perspective you are possibly inferring God wants to show mercy on All individuals without exception in the world but can’t fulfill His will because man’s will takes precedence over God’s will.
It appears the scripture is stating he will show mercy; not desires to show mercy but can’t execute the mercy because of man’s Will to resist.
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Replying to your “Calvinism” term in my understanding from what I read historical Calvinism possibly presents a different picture then today’s Calvinist; whatever the term really stands for; I don’t know; but, I don’t know of any Calvinist’s from what I read, particularly, Charles Spurgeon that believe God is making unconditionally vessels fitted out for destruction and dishonor by His hand; but they believe the vessels are fitting themselves and making themselves into vessels fitted out for destruction.
They don’t believe the lump of clay starts out neutral and God himself from that neutral lump of clay unconditionally chooses makes and forms both types of vessels, vessels of mercy and vessels fitted out for destruction.
In other words, they don’t believe in God’s Absolute Total Sovereignty to do with His creation as He desires.
Some actually allude that Christ could have died and paid for the sins of everyone. This could never be even a possibility according to scripture; since some will not be saved.
He effectually and efficaciously died only for the children He promised to save, who He unconditionally loved and chose from before the foundation of the world which means He reprobates all others unconditionally chosen and hated from before the foundation of the world.
“Free” Will of any sort is a doctrine of demons. God is omniscient and omnipotent and according to
John 3:27
John answered and said, A man is able to receive nothing if it is not given to him from Heaven.
Romans 9 Genesis 2 Genesis 3 Romans 8 Ephesians 1 Ephesians 2 Amos 3:2
2 Thessalonians 2:13 etc
I can’t keep from deducing that you believe in some sort of “Free”Will of man which would mean we are at polar opposites.
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You deny open theism. You deny determinism. You deny compatiblism. We are both desiring a Christian world view so stop dancing around the question. You are in the corner like always. Running and running like always. You stand for nothing, wishy washy. Send an email to Flowers and ask him what his philosophical Christian world view is – I’m sure you will follow him blindly as you do in all things he believes.
It’s simple, either God does not determine anything in His created world and everything is open based upon human free will actions, or God controls some things and over rides the free will actions of humans but not all free will actions, or God controls all actions in His created world.
Goodness gracious, pick one already! Quit being a moving target and let the debate begin.
Paul
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I will once again ask you. Which one of the three positions are you defending from Scripture? If there is a 4th or 5th etc please enlighten us. I will not hold my breath in waiting for you to defend a position. I’ll dues waiting.
No my friend, the Jesus you believe in either affirms the true Gospel or labels you a false believer (not everyone who says Lord Lord will inherit the kingdom of God……).
Anyone who preaches another Christ is preaching another gospel and let him be accursed (Gal 1:6-9)
Your understanding of who Jesus is and His atoning work and what it accomplishes is vital and make no mistake about it- this is NOT a secondary issue by any stretch of the imagination. Preaching any gospel that is not teaching sovereign unconditional election is another gospel and let him be accursed. Anyone teaching that the cross forgives the sins and atones for those who have been sovereignly elected to damnation is preaching another gospel, let him be accursed.
Repent of teaching a false gospel and believe the truth of the one and only Gospel, for there is no other gospel by which men will be saved.
Paul
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Most of the complaints you have of me could be used against you, but I refuse to assume the worst of you. I find you are willing to condemn me quite quickly and far too easily. I would be happy to supply my phone number via email to discuss some of the more pertinent points you are concerned about in my faith. Please let me know if this is an acceptable method for you, as I find it difficult to address each of your concerns in this format.
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Since you take the position against determinism, what positive position are you defending?
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It makes no difference to me as to what you think of me. I could care less as to whether you think the worst of me. I condemn anyone preaching a different gospel and a different Jesus. You should take a stance and do the same. Either free will is true and this would make you the teacher of the true Gospel or The sovereignty of God controls the actions of men (whether directly or by secondary means) and this would make me the teacher of the true Gospel. We both cannot be correct. We stand on opposite sides of the line and to call each other brothers only creates confusion. Not confusion on my part but on yours and those who want to include someone like me who believes in determisn and sovereign unconditional election into the fold. No my friend we are not brother for you and I believe in very different gods. You are more than welcome to email me directly at:
Azbelting@gmail.com
You can include your phone number and we can discuss your position as I am interested in listening to it.
Paul
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You called me friend. That is good!
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Are you an open theist?
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I am not an open theist.
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What position can you describe that can be laid along side “determinism” to see the scriptural contrast ?
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