In our previous post, I tried to give some of my interactions and history with the Calvinistic thought process and teachings.
With this post, I would like to introduce you to the teacher I referred to earlier. He is a former Calvinist also, and has recanted, and has become a bit of a lightning rod for provisionism soteriology teaching.
Many of his videos are quite lengthy, and have kept my interest now for weeks. What I would like to do is offer his “60 Second Soteriology” clips to introduce you to Mr Leighton Flowers.
I do hope you will consider the teaching with an open mind.
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Thanks again for coming to visit. I hope you found something of interest in this post and would appreciate a comment, to begin a discussion.
Considering the Bible 
As a young person a former Pastor came back to visit. He tried to explain that verse and all he accomplished was, he left most of us confused.
My thought about it. If we are pre-destined than why would we be calling for people to come to the Lord. I truly feel that God gave man a free will. That verse if pre-destination is true, that would strip our free will from us. If people are already doomed to hell, then Calvary is in vain.
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A sane voice in a room of confusion. Thanks for commenting!!!
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You ask: why do we call people to the Lord.
Answer: We preach for two reasons- first because Christ has commanded us to do so (the great commission is to preach to all creation).
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.””
Matthew 28:19-20 ESV
Secondly, because preaching the Gospel is the means by which God uses to raise His elect to spiritual life.
“But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
Romans 10:16-17 ESV
We do not know who the elect of God are when we preach, however we know that His word accomplishes whatsoever God desires for His word does not return to Him void.
““For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”
Isaiah 55:10-11 ESV
You have to deal with predestination because it’s all over the Bible. You can’t just ignore it. God sent His prophets and apostles into the the world to spill a whole lot of ink on the subject. Free will is a figment of mans imagination (see Isaiah 10 and the king of Assyria). You are without excuse. Repent and believe the Gospel.
Calvary is not in vain for the cross redeems His people. Christ was put forth on the cross as a perfect substitutionary atoning sacrifice that satisfies the wrath of the Father for all His elect. The sins of His people laid upon Him as a propitiatory sacrifice and Christ’s perfect law keeping imputed to His people (imputed righteousness). All who believe this and call upon His name shall be saved to the uttermost and Christ is a perfect powerful savior who will not lose any whom the Father has given to Him.
Think about this: Since God knows exactly who will call upon His name. Why would He send His Son into the world to die for those whom He knows will never call upon His name ? Universal atonement or general redemption is ridiculous There is soooooo many problems with universal atonement. Let me know if you want to hear the truth about what the cross accomplishes.
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“For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ESV
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John 3:16 KJ3
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
“ So loved the world “ can’t mean God loves every individual because God unconditionally hated Esau and loved Jacob before they had done anything good or bad ..Romans 9:11
Believing into Him means believing that salvation is conditioned solely on the atoning shed Blood of Christ and His imputed Righteousness without any contribution from the sinner based on Christ’s work alone. You are in Christ if He is in you. This belief of the Gospel comes when the spirit blows where it wills which means to whom it wills from above at the time God generates a new spirit within and you pass from death to life
John 3:3-8 Romans 8:9 Romans 3:24-27 John 5:24 Romans 4:3-8
The Jews knew what Jesus meant in this context that world the inclusion of Gentiles. God loves both Jew and Gentile; not just the Jews only
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Have you considered that when Esau is spoken of as “hated”, it is an idiom, describing a priority.
Somewhat like when Jesus said we had to hate our parents and children etc. to follow Him. It is a priority thing, that is God is more important than our parent or child.
Surely He didnt mean for me to literally hate and despise my mother, father, brother and sister.
Something to consider.
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My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
1 John 2:1-2 ESV
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Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.” Roman’s 5:18
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“For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died FOR ALL, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
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In Christ God was reconciling the WORLD to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:19
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Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
1 Timothy 1:15
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For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
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For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
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Savior of All Men
1 Timothy 4:10 KJ3
for to this we also labor and are re- proached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believing ones.
Comment
God, who is savior of All Men
Isaiah 43:11 God is the only Savior of All Men that will be saved from the 2nd death
Revelation 20:14-15- All Men are the ones found in the Book of Life
Who are “All Men” that God is The Savior of that are being saved from the 2nd death by God.
Revelation 7:9 tells us the “All Men” are Jews and Gentiles … The Elect chosen unconditionally from before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:11 Romans 9:11
Revelation 7:9
After these things I saw, and behold, a large multitude which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and languages, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.
What is significant and in common about all men that were taken from every tribe or every nation and from different languages and peoples etc.
They are especially (particularly) (namely) of believing ones in Gospel of Christ that salvation in conditioned solely on the atoning shed blood and imputed righteousness without any effort from the sinner chosen unconditionally from before the foundation of the world.
All men means all the ones God has chosen unconditionally to save taken from every nation even tribes and peoples and languages. All men is saying he does not discriminate against any particular nation, tribe, language and people. All men doesn’t mean every individual without exception.
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For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for ALL PEOPLE.
Titus 2:11
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Titus 2:11 KJ3
For the saving grace of God has ap- peared to all men,
The Grace of God has appeared to every nation, even tribes and peoples and languages
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But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for EVERYONE.
Hebrews 2:9
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They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them.”
2 Peter 2:1
This appears to indicate that Christ “bought” some who are not among the elect.
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2 Peter 2:1 (KJ 3) translation
But there also came to be false prophets among the people, as also among you will be false teachers who will secretly bring destructive heresies, even denying the One having bought them, the Master, bringing swift destruction on themselves
Comment
Note: the phrase “ came to be” (known)(as)
False prophets among you ….. that alludes to …they weren’t known as false prophets in the beginning … but (eventually)brought in secretly destructive heresies “ even denying the having bought them”….. The master they originally said bought them but later they brought in secretly destructive heresies that would even deny the one they claimed originally bought them showing they never truly believed.
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Unsure how this avoids the obvious message of the verse.
The prophets are of the old testament economy with the false teachers being the issue for us believers.
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I see the subtle distinction between the time period of the false prophets versus the false teachers but the concept still could apply by the term “ secretly” brought in destructive heresies …this could have happened after first professing belief in the atonement. If Christ actually bought and paid for their sins, they couldn’t be judged for them
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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9
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Please please take some of the valuable time you have on your hands to study the original Koine Greek language. If you don’t want to do that then please go down to your nearest Christian seminary library and check out all the books on the subject of the atonement. If you don’t want to do that then I recommend a very inexpensive book by John Owen “the death of death in the death of Christ”. John Owen crushes universal redemption into fine powder. I am studied up in the Koine Greek language and will make it super simple for you.
The word world is Kosmos, and doesn’t necessarily mean or refer to every single person that has ever lived, is living now and ever will live. The word Kosmos in most texts refers to people from every tongue, tribe and nation. Please keep in mind that the NT writers were Jewish and Christ has been correcting them in this regard throughout His ministry. The Jewish mind set is to proselytize the gentiles and bring them into the Mosaic covenant by way of circumcision which rarely happened during the time of Christ because the Jewish mindset during the time of Christ was that salvation is for the Jews and not for the filthy dirty sinful gentiles. This is why Jesus commands them to begin in Jerusalem by waiting for the power of the Spirit to come upon them then to Judaea and Samaria and then to the ends of the earth (to the world or people from every tongue, tribe and nation) (see Luke 24:45-49 and Acts 1:1-8)
I will leave you with this verse written by John who uses the word kosmos often throughout his writings in the NT. He defines the word world very well in Revelation 7.
“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,”
Revelation 7:9 ESV
Would you like for me to exegete every proof text for you to prove that the Greek word “kosmos” means people from every tongue, tribe and nation and that it doesn’t mean every single person that has ever lived, is living now and ever will live?
I will elaborate on John 3:16 and this should suffice.
Please notice that there is particularity in John 3:16 and should be understood in this manner,
“In this way, God loved the world (people from every tongue, tribe and nation), that He gave His one and only unique Son so that ALL of the BELIEVING ones will not perish but have everlasting life.
Notice that the Father sends the Son for the BELIEVING ONES from every tongue, tribe and nation (Mexicans, Asians, middle eastern, Jewish, etc etc). The point throughout the NT is that God is saving all kinds of people (drug addicts, prostitutes, the sexually immoral, etc) from every tongue, tribe and nation and the NT refers to the believing elect as the world/kosmos.
Now let me define the Greek word “pas” or all. Once again the Greek word in the Jewish mind set of the first century does not mean “every single person that has lived, is living now and ever will live.” The first century Jew understood salvation to be for the Jew only. Jesus corrects this evil mindset and teaches His apostles and disciples that the Gospel is for “all” people from every tongue, tribe and nation without exception because the Father has elected “all” kinds of people from every background from all over the globe. Take some time to listen to the writers of the NT with this in mind and I pray Jehovah grants you ears to hear and eyes to see what the original authors of the NT intended for their readers.
You should not take an English language word which came centuries later like “world” or “all” and force it’s meaning onto the koine Greek language. Neither should you force your universal atonement theology onto the Jewish mindset of the first century.
I don’t believe you were ever a Calvinist – you think you were, but you know nothing of Greek to English translation or proper exegesis or interpretation for that matter.
The Father did not send His only unique Son into the world to atone for those whom He did not elect in eternity past. Universal atonement is false doctrine and you are believing a lie from Satan. Repent of believing a lie from Satan and believe the truth of the Gospel.
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You say:
consideringthebibletogether
2021-03-15 AT 6:40 PM
Have you considered that when Esau is spoken of as “hated”, it is an idiom, describing a priority.
Somewhat like when Jesus said we had to hate our parents and children etc. to follow Him. It is a priority thing, that is God is more important than our parent or child.
Surely He didnt mean for me to literally hate and despise my mother, father, brother and sister.
Something to consider.
answer by Paul:
Once again you jump off the track of Paul’s argument of sovereign unconditional election to salvation and eternal damnation in Romans 9. I told you from the beginning that you would jump to other texts and avoid Romans 9 and you have not disappointed. Here we see you running off to the Gospel according to Luke and the cost of discipleship for your so called definition of “hate” in Romans 9:13. For you would have us believe that Paul’s definition of “hate” in Romans 9:13 is an idiom describing priority. What a joke! You can’t even serve a god that “hates” a person. I’m assuming your god is limited to one emotion- love, am I correct?
Let me provide proper Exegesis and definition of the word “hate” in Paul’s argument here in Romans 9. We shall see that the sovereign Lord Jehovah “hates” “detests” and “unloves” those He elected to eternal destruction called the wicked, like Esau.
First we must understand that the Greek Septuagint word here Paul uses must be defined in the Hebrew because he specifically quotes from the OT Malachi 1:2-5. So we will look at 3 separate passages from our OT using the Hebrew word from Strongs Concordance שָׂנֵא #8130 “Sane” (verb) and is defined as NASB Translation
detest (1), enemy (3), enmity (1), foes (1), hate (78), hated (28), hated her intensely (1), hates (19), hating (2), hatred (1), turned against (1), turns against (2), unloved (7).
Strongs concordance defines the word as “hate” “detest” “unloved”. {Emphasis mine: it is the exact opposite of love}
Let us now allow our OT to define the word being used by Paul in Romans 9.
““I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob but [Esau I have hated.] I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the Lord of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.’” Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!””
Malachi 1:2-5 ESV
“For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; [you hate all evildoers.] You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.”
Psalm 5:4-6 ESV
“The Lord tests the righteous, [but his soul hates the wicked] and the one who loves violence. Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.”
Psalm 11:5-6 ESV
So here we see that God “hates” the wicked and all evildoers. Please notice that Jehovah hates specific people. Malachi tells us that God hates Esau, for He detests Esau and has no love for him. And the wicked people are the ones that Jehovah is angry with forever.
This doesn’t sound like an “idiom describing priority” does it? No, it doesn’t.
Apostle Paul in Romans 9:13 quotes Malachi 1:2-5
And tells us that BEFORE Esau had done anything bad (sin) God “hated/detested/unloved” him, in other words God sovereignly unconditionally elected him to eternal damnation forever where fire and sulfur and scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.
I pray you would stop twisting the Holy Scriptures to your own destruction. I pray you would stop following after false teachers like Dr Brown and Leighton. Repent! And believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His apostles.
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We know what hate means now!
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You condemn me for comparing Luke with Romans, and then supply a bunch of verses
A wee bit inconsistent by your own standards, no?
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It looks like Paul just went back to the verses in the Old Testament using the same word; but particularly the book of Malachi which Romans 9:11 was referring to get the proper meaning of the word “hate” to substantiate the hate for Esau was not an idiom but real hate and the opposite of love
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My bad. Let me get home from work so I may respond to your question properly.
I understand your question as. Where is free will when God is making / molding the clay?
Thanks for your patience.
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I replied to your question in a different comment.
Feel free to respond to the Scripture example (Matt 23:37) and my effort to explain my thinking.
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First off Paul is very very clear as to what the “calling” and “election” is. You Arminians hold on to free will soooooooo tight you will look the other way at all cost. The calling of God in Romans 8,9 & 10 is to salvation which includes being molded for its purpose. God sovereignly unconditionally elected Jacob before he had done anything good (the good would be any type of faith). You cannot run away from the Golden chain of redemption in chapter 8 which clearly tells us that the calling of election in eternity past is to salvation. “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
Romans 8:30 ESV
Notice that all the verbs are what God is doing! God is predestining His elect, God is the one calling His elect, God is the one justifying His elect, and God is the one glorifying His elect! Nothing and no one can break this chain and all to the praise of His glorious grace.
You make the claim that you listen- however, It appears that you do not have ears to hear as Jesus told the Pharisees
Now let me do some simple exegesis of the Matthew proof text you Arminians run off to because you cannot deal with Pauline doctrine of sovereign unconditional election to salvation. Notice I didn’t say election is to some type of work as you would have it. And this is what you will do over and over and over – you will run away from Romans 8,9,10 and Isaiah 10 etc etc to a verse in Matthew, or 1 Peter, etc in order to spew off some free will. Non the less I will labor here in hopes that God would grant you ears to hear and eyes to see.
The context of verse 37 must come from what Jesus had previously stated. Jesus is rebuking and condemning the leaders of Israel before the people and his disciples (see v1).
““But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.”
Matthew 23:13, 15 ESV
With this as its proper context Jesus now concludes his condemnation of the Scribes and Pharisees who are the leaders of Israel. He ends it with,
““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’””
Matthew 23:37-39 ESV
We must define who Jerusalem is which is not difficult because Jesus tells us throughout the entire chapter who Jerusalem is. Jesus lumps the leaders together who are the Scribes and Pharisees and calls them “Jerusalem.” Throughout the OT Israel specifically its leaders killed the prophets sent to it. This is its apex- THE PROPHET Jesus the Messiah who is sent to Jerusalem will be crucified by its leaders the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus now says, “how often would I have gathered your children……”
The children being the people. “And you were not willing”.
So here we see that “Jerusalem” being the Scribes and Pharisees who are its leaders are not willing to allow Jesus to gather up the people to Himself. What Jesus is saying is the same thing he’s been saying through the entire chapter, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem (Scribes and Pharisees) for you shut the kingdom of heaven in peoples faces and you will not allow them to come to me.”
So please explain to me how this proof text of yours in any way refutes Paul’s doctrine of sovereign unconditional election found in Romans 8,9, and 10 or Isaiah 10?
Note: It would be best for you to exegesis Romans 9 and Isaiah 10 before you run off to other proof texts. You have yet to give any positive presentation of Romans 9 or Isaiah 10.
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You know Paul, it appears no matter what I answer, you will find fault.
I want you to know that I do not have all the answers, other than that I can no longer accept the teaching that sovereignty equals meticulous determinism.
I had spent many years as a Calvinist, but could not maintain that soteriology as I continued my studies.
Is Jesus the King? Of course! Both you and I would say amen to that. The difference between us is the manner of rule our Savior exercises.
I understand that by willingly bending my will to His will brings Him glory. I dont understand how your thinking allows for your will to conform since it has all been previously determined.
Nevertheless, let us be at peace with our faith. You have strong opinions that you are settled with, and which you have found comfort.
May God bless your day and may He give you peace.
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I will make it very clear that you and I do not believe nor serve the same God. You serve a man made false god created in your own likeness. A false god who bows down to His created creatures. Your false god creates creatures he cannot control. Your false god is not worthy of praise. I believe and serve the true and almighty sovereign Jehovah as proclaimed by Jesus Christ the Sovereign Lord who rules and reigns over all things seen and unseen.
You are correct in saying you do not have all the answers. As a matter of fact you have not given us any answers not even one. You have not even attempted to exegete Romans 9 or Isaiah 10. You do not have ears to hear or eyes to see. I call Leighton a false teacher and Scripture has warned you of such men.
“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV
And
“And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. [There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.] You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.”
2 Peter 3:15-17 ESV
False teachers like Leighton and Arminians who follow after his teachings twist apostles Paul’s teachings because his teachings are hard to understand to the mind of the natural man. Your ears itch for the sovereign will of man. Nevertheless, you have been warned.
Repent of believing false doctrine and believe the only true Gospel as proclaimed by Jesus and His apostles.
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May I ask you if, in your opinion only Calvinists are true believers, the only real Christian’s acceptable before God?
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You ask
consideringthebibletogether
2021-03-12 AT 1:35 PM
May I ask you if, in your opinion only Calvinists are true believers, the only real Christian’s acceptable before God?
My response (Paul):
You sure like to use pejorative labels. You label me a “Calvinist”. I am not a Calvinist. If you stop calling me a Calvinist I will stop calling you an Arminian (unless you really are). I am used to it since the Arminian false teachers train their followers to run from the mean and divisive calvinists. Lol i find it funny, but the name calling is expected from those who desire to cause the “fear factor.”
All the elect believe the one and only true Gospel for it is the power of God for salvation.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.””
Romans 1:16-17 ESV
Once the elect are regenerated God the Spirit causes the infant believer to grow in the knowledge and wisdom of God by way of the Word (Scriptures). Anyone who claims to be a believer once enlightened with the deeper truths of Scripture (the meat no longer feeding on milk) such as sovereign unconditional election, the doctrine of the work and person of Christ, the doctrine of justification, etc etc and then rejects these truths preached by the apostles – proves they went out from us because they were never of us (1Jn 2:18-25).
Plain and simple- people cannot believe whatever they want about the person and work of Messiah. Once enlightened with the truth all true believers accept it, believe it, defend it, and will die for it.
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Matthew 23:37
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your chil- dren in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! And you did not desire it.
The desire of Jesus to gather The Pharisees’ children under His wings cannot be depicting that God’s will is being superseded by Man’s will because that meaning can not be synchronized with the meaning of multiple other scriptures.
In the verses below, if considered with the verse above, it should be evident that Jesus was speaking as a man, a teacher, to false teachers; the Pharisees, holding them accountable for keeping the fruit of their teaching, their children, away from His (Jesus)teaching. Jesus as a man was relying on the Father to bring those He has chosen; to Him. If The Father wants any of the children of the Pharisees to come to Jesus, He will draw (drag) them. John 6:44,65
Jesus knew that all that the Father gives to Him will come to Him. It seems evident that he was, as a man, revealing how gladly he would have taken their children under His wings for instruction; but you (Pharisees)did not desire it.
Jesus is holding them accountable. The verse isn’t proving that man’s will takes precedence over God’s will, particularly, since no one can resist God’s will and He always accomplishes what He desires. If God wants to have mercy or harden, it will be according to His will and purpose.
Romans 9:19, Isaiah 46:10, Romans 9:18
John 6:37
All who the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will not cast out, not ever,
The Father is in control of who comes to Jesus Christ.
Romans 9:16
16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One having mercy, of God
Man’s will is not the determining factor but God’s mercy and will is the determining factor
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
13 who were generated not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were generated of God.
Those that received Him were generated of God through the gift of the spirit which does not originate or come by the will of man but by the will of God. It changes the will of man and causes him to come because once the spirit of Christ is given he has passed from death to life.
John 3:3-8, John 5:24
Matthew 16:17
And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you,
but My Father in Heaven.
The revealing of who , the man, Jesus Christ is, was revealed to Peter by The Father
John 6:65
65 And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
No one comes to The Son, except, The Father draws (drags) him to The Son (John 6:44)
Matthew 24:36
But about that day and that hour, no one has known, neither the angels of Heaven, except My Father only.
Here again knowledge is being withheld by the Father from Jesus.
Mark 13:32
32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one has known, not the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
Matthew 11:27
All things were given over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and to whomever the Son purposes to reveal Him.
Here, the Father, once again, is the one that reveals the Son to the ones The Father has chosen to give to Jesus and then Jesus reveals The Father simultaneously
Job 23:13
But He is in one mind,and who can turn Him? Yea, His soul desires, and He does it.
Isaiah 55:11
so shall My Word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall do that which I please, and it shall prosper in that which I sent it to do
What God desires to do, he does! His Word goes out and accomplishes that which he intended it to accomplish. Man can’t interfere with God’s will Dan 4:35
Matthew 15:14
Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind; and if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.
Here, Jesus doesn’t seem to be as concerned about the Pharisees’ children which gives more credence to the thought that his purpose of addressing the Pharisees in Matthew 23:37 was just to hold them accountable and show his desire to instruct and teach the Gospel to the Pharisees’ children.
God does whatever His will desires according to purpose for the benefit of the elect Romans 8:28 9:22-23 and man’s will won’t interfere. Romans 9:16 9:19 No one would ever get saved without God drawing (dragging) them to Christ. John 6:44
The Natural Man doesn’t have the will to come to Jesus because he doesn’t have the spirit to come; which gives spiritual discernment and the desire to come.
1 Corinthians 2:14 He requires generation from above from the Spirit that blows where it wills. John 3:3-8
He thinks the Cross of Christ is foolishness and ineffectual 1 Corinthians 1:18 which forces him to believe salvation has to rely on man’s free will decision to be saved. This idea was spawned into natural man’s nature after eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden. This false gospel is the work of man who believes in the ineffectual work of the Cross of Christ but John 6:29 says belief in the efficacious atonement is the work of God
God desires all men to be saved
1 Timothy 2:4 and all men are saved read Revelation 7:9 because God does all that he desires Job 23:13 Isaiah 46:10
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Matthew 23:37
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your chil- dren in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! And you did not desire it.
The desire of Jesus to gather The Pharisees’ children under His wings cannot be depicting that God’s will is being superseded by Man’s will because that meaning can not be synchronized with the meaning of multiple other scriptures.
In the verses below, if considered with the verse above, it should be evident that Jesus was speaking as a man, a teacher, to false teachers; the Pharisees, holding them accountable for keeping the fruit of their teaching, their children, away from His (Jesus)teaching. Jesus as a man was relying on the Father to bring those He has chosen; to Him. If The Father wants any of the children of the Pharisees to come to Jesus, He will draw (drag) them. John 6:44,65
Jesus knew that all that the Father gives to Him will come to Him. It seems evident that he was, as a man, revealing how gladly he would have taken their children under His wings for instruction; but you (Pharisees)did not desire it.
Jesus is holding them accountable. The verse isn’t proving that man’s will takes precedence over God’s will, particularly, since no one can resist God’s will and He always accomplishes what He desires. If God wants to have mercy or harden, it will be according to His will and purpose.
Romans 9:19, Isaiah 46:10, Romans 9:18
John 6:37
All who the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will not cast out, not ever,
The Father is in control of who comes to Jesus Christ.
Romans 9:16
16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One having mercy, of God
Man’s will is not the determining factor but God’s mercy and will is the determining factor
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
13 who were generated not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were generated of God.
Those that received Him were generated of God through the gift of the spirit which does not originate or come by the will of man but by the will of God. It changes the will of man and causes him to come because once the spirit of Christ is given he has passed from death to life.
John 3:3-8, John 5:24
Matthew 16:17
And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you,
but My Father in Heaven.
The revealing of who , the man, Jesus Christ is, was revealed to Peter by The Father
John 6:65
65 And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
No one comes to The Son, except, The Father draws (drags) him to The Son (John 6:44)
Matthew 24:36
But about that day and that hour, no one has known, neither the angels of Heaven, except My Father only.
Here again knowledge is being withheld by the Father from Jesus.
Mark 13:32
32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one has known, not the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
Matthew 11:27
All things were given over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and to whomever the Son purposes to reveal Him.
Here, the Father, once again, is the one that reveals the Son to the ones The Father has chosen to give to Jesus and then Jesus reveals The Father simultaneously
Job 23:13
But He is in one mind,and who can turn Him? Yea, His soul desires, and He does it.
Isaiah 55:11
so shall My Word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall do that which I please, and it shall prosper in that which I sent it to do
What God desires to do, he does! His Word goes out and accomplishes that which he intended it to accomplish. Man can’t interfere with God’s will Dan 4:35
Matthew 15:14
Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind; and if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.
Here, Jesus doesn’t seem to be as concerned about the Pharisees’ children which gives more credence to the thought that his purpose of addressing the Pharisees in Matthew 23:37 was just to hold them accountable and show his desire to instruct and teach the Gospel to the Pharisees’ children.
God does whatever His will desires according to purpose for the benefit of the elect Romans 8:28 9:22-23 and man’s will won’t interfere. Romans 9:16 9:19 No one would ever get saved without God drawing (dragging) them to Christ. John 6:44
The Natural Man doesn’t have the will to come to Jesus because he doesn’t have the spirit to come; which gives spiritual discernment and the desire to come.
1 Corinthians 2:14 He requires generation from above from the Spirit that blows where it wills. John 3:3-8
He thinks the Cross of Christ is foolishness and ineffectual 1 Corinthians 1:18 which forces him to believe salvation has to rely on man’s free will decision to be saved. This idea was spawned into natural man’s nature after eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden. This false gospel is the work of man who believes in the ineffectual work of the Cross of Christ but John 6:29 says belief in the efficacious atonement is the work of God
God desires all men to be saved
1 Timothy 2:4 and all men are saved read Revelation 7:9 because God does all that he desires Job 23:13 Isaiah 46:10
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1 Timothy 4:10 reply
Savior of All Men
for to this we also labor and are re- proached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believing ones.
KJ3 translation
Comment
God, who is Savior of All Men.
Isaiah 43:11
God is the only savior of All Men that will be saved from the 2nd death.
Revelation 20:14-15
All men that are saved; God is the only savior. All men are the ones found in the book of Life
Who are “All Men” that God is The Savior of that are being saved from the 2nd death by God,
Revelation 7:9 tells us All Men are Jews and Gentiles… The Elect Ephesians 1:11
Revelation 7:9
After these things I saw, and behold, a large multitude which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and languages, standing in front of the throne, and be- fore the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.
What is significant and in common about “all men” saved coming from every nation, even tribes and peoples and languages?
They are especially (particularly) (namely) of believing (ones) in the Gospel of Christ that Salvation is conditioned solely on the Atoning shed blood of Christ and His imputed righteousness without any effort from the sinner. Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:29 Romans 3 Romans 4
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So do us the honor and explain it in any other way. I’m listening 👂 Why would you assume that your comments upset me? I have the truth and I will defend it. Please do us both a favor and stop making “assumptions” as to how I feel because it only proves that you cannot rightly handle the word of truth, since you immediately run off to accusing me of being upset and hurt over your comments. Please 🙄 ! Now let’s get down to you defending Leightons heresy
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I apologised for assuming you were upset.
Were you able to address my questions?
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You want me to reply but you haven’t addressed My original post you haven’t even tried to exegesis any of it. I take it that you cannot and I’m positive you will do this during the entire discussion. You will deflect by posing question and question and making straw men arguments against a position I do not hold to.
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Leighton is a false teacher. He makes the claim that God does not decide the fate of the creature. Apostle Paul writes that Leighton is the objector in Romans 9, “And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, [though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue,] not because of works but because of him who calls—
As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.””
Romans 9:10-11, 13 ESV
I’ve put in italics Paul’s point, that neither Jacob nor Esau had done anything good or bad and yet God had already decided BEFORE they were born (in eternity past) that He as the sovereign Lord would give eternal life to Jacob and condemn Esau to the pit of hell.
Leighton also makes the claim that God is fatalistic because He creates vessels of dishonor. So apostle Paul now knowing the false teachers argument – decided to chop down the tree at the root, and says ““What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”
Romans 9:14-16 ESV
Notice Paul points out that salvation (being a vessel made for honor) is based upon One person- that is GOD who has mercy on whomever HE chooses. The vessel or creature never makes a choice but Paul argues to the contrary – so it DOES NOT depend on human will or human exertion !!!!
Call it “fatalistic” but scripture says “who are you oh man, to answer back to God” ! Leighton is a self righteous modern day Pharisee who actually believes he is more righteous than Jehovah for he places himself in a place to judge his creator.
So basically Leighton reverses Paul’s entire argument by saying, “the thing formed has the right to say to Him who formed it, why did you make me this way? You are unjust! You as the Potter have no right over me as the clay, you cannot do to me as you please- oh no I will do as I please to make myself a vessel of honor or dishonor!”
The King of Assyria says, I will do this and I will do that, and all by my own might hand
“For he says: “By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom, for I have understanding; I remove the boundaries of peoples, and plunder their treasures; like a bull I bring down those who sit on thrones. My hand has found like a nest the wealth of the peoples; and as one gathers eggs that have been forsaken, so I have gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved a wing or opened the mouth or chirped.””
Isaiah 10:13-14 ESV
And God responds,
“Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it, or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it? As if a rod should wield him who lifts it, or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!”
Isaiah 10:15 ESV
Leighton is like the king of Assyria- boasting in himself saying, “I do this and I do that, all by my human sovereign will” and all the while God is the one moving him 😆🤣😂
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As a former calvinist, I have also argued similarly but have found the passages above to be explainable in more than one way.
My biggest hurdle, as with many discussions, was my willingness to listen in order to understand instead of building a defence while supposedly listening.
Sorry if this upsets you, but IMHO, Leighton’s irenic composure has allowed me to try to understand his points, and currently find them to be possible.
Have a great day, and give thanks, for He is good.
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I couldn’t find a “reply” to your James text so I will reply here in hopes that your readers can catch up and follow along.
You say: I’m trying to ask, by using that term, whether God has determined absolutely everything that we experience, decide upon and do. The issue if this is true, is that God becomes linked to our sinful behaviors.
James seems to argue against that thinking, laying the responsibility squarely on us.
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
James 1:13-15
My (Paul) response: Yes, God determines all things and I call it “absolute determinism.” There is no issue because God creates/molds/makes/shapes the human heart and its desires/emotions etc etc. (see Romans 9 and Isaiah 10) and once again you try to pit Scripture against Scripture by running off to James. I will now labor in hopes that God will grant you ears to hear and eyes to see.
God in His omnipotence does not need to tempt anyone. Since God in his omnipotent power creates the heart along with its desires therefore, there is no need to tempt man nor is he associated with the creatures sin. God “makes the vessel” with certain desires and the creature is sure to fulfill those specific sinful desires within themselves.
“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—”
Romans 9:17, 22-23 ESV
Please notice the power of God is being shown in Pharaoh and every vessel created by God is created for the purpose to show His wrath and to make known His power. And He endures with much patience those vessels of wrath which He creates/makes/molds/shapes for destruction, for the purpose of making known the riches of His glory for the vessels of mercy which He creates for glory.
God shows His power “in” Pharaoh’s heart. God creates/makes/molds/shapes Pharaohs heart and in this way Pharaoh is lured and enticed by his own sinful desires. Then the Pharaohs desires when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
God is showing His power in every heart, in every place at every second! To Him be the glory!
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You say:
consideringthebibletogether
2021-03-16 AT 9:33 PM
You condemn me for comparing Luke with Romans, and then supply a bunch of verses
A wee bit inconsistent by your own standards, no?
My reply: there is no inconsistency anywhere in my exegesis. It is an amazing thing to watch and listen to when I encounter a spiritually blind man as yourself. You cannot see or understand that the scriptures I provided from the OT are defining the word “hate.” I clearly define Paul’s use of “hate” in his quote of Malachi by utilizing the Psalm texts. This is what theologians call proper exegesis, but you don’t know anything about exegesis.
You however do no such thing with your shotgun spatter of verses referring to “world”, “all”, and “everyone”. The apostle never even uses any of these words in Romans 9. The only inconsistencies are in your failed attempts to avoid Romans 9. The only thing you’ve been able to do is consistently is contradict Gods word over and over and over.
You should be very worried about your soul and the judgement that God will pour out upon you for not only rejecting His Word but contradicting it.
Repent and believe the Gospel as preached by the apostle Paul to the elect in Rome.
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God’s Total Absolute Sovereignty is a very joyfully received essential Gospel doctrine. You do a great service to the glorification of God and a great job in using scripture; giving the biblical support for the doctrine of The Absolute Sovereignty of God! Thank You Very Much!!
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Is total absolute sovereignty the same as meticulous determinism? Does God determine absolutely every decision, action and work every created being will experience?
Every sin we perform was determined by God?
Are we simply moist robots?
If incapable of responding to the call of God for salvation, how may I be judged for rejecting the call?
Just a few questions that rattle around in my cranium.
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What is difference between the first 2 questions?
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I am not sure of the difference. Maybe Paul can explain the difference.
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The reason I asked if there was a difference between the first 2 questions was because I was guessing by the sound of the term that there didn’t appear to be a difference; but I had never seen the term “meticulously determinism”
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I’m trying to ask, by using that term, whether God has determined absolutely everything that we experience, decide upon and do. The issue if this is true, is that God becomes linked to our sinful behaviors.
James seems to argue against that thinking, laying the responsibility squarely on us.
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
James 1:13-15
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God doesn’t need to tempt or test anyone; he controls everything including evil
Proverbs 16:4
Jehovah has made all for His purpose, yea, even the wicked one for the day of evil things.
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The answer to question 1 & 2 Yes Question 3 Yes, an electronic robot could short circuit so that wouldn’t depict enough control by God to keep in accordance with his plan ..A “moist robot” I assume is our body that they say is 90% water. That body could fail prematurely without God’s control and mess up his plan. I think when you say “reject the call” we differ, I look at that phrase as meaning either one that doesn’t believe the Gospel versus one that does believe the Gospel that salvation is conditioned solely on his work and person without any effort or work from the sinner. The ones that have ears to hear that Gospel, a gift, have been regenerated at God’s will according to John 3:3-8 … covered under the wind or spirit blows where the Spirit wills.
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No one believes that created creatures are robots, this is a straw man argument. Scripture teaches determinism- God controls all things. Please do us all a favor and use Scripture when answering because no one other than yourself wants the foolish thoughts of man. I’ve already proven to you that Isaiah 10 tells us that God was controlling the king of Assyria. Now let us listen to the apostle since you say you listen- when he writes “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?”
Romans 9:21 ESV
Now Let me ask you a question: Where is “free will” when God is “making”/ “molding” the creature (clay)? Please tell us how the clay/axe can answer back to the Potter or Him who wields it. And please use Scripture
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Consider the following Scripture.
Jesus is speaking of His/God’s desire/will to gather thy children together, but they would not.
This Scripture speaks of God’s will being refused by those God loves and wants to protect.
Jesus is speaking clearly of human will in opposition to God’s will in this verse, where Jeremiah and Isaiah are speaking of inanimate objects, and those being likened to certain specific men.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:37 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.23.37.KJV
Note that the purpose. In Roman’s 9 that Paul is describing, is the USE of the vessel, not its destination.
Thanks again for discussing. I hope this Scripture is helpful. Have a blessed day.
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Matthew 23:37 KJ3
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! And you did not desire it.
The desire of Jesus to gather The Pharisees’ children under His wings cannot be depicting that God’s will is being superseded by Man’s will because that meaning can not be synchronized with the meaning of multiple other scriptures.
In the verses below, if considered with the verse above, it should be evident that Jesus was speaking as a man, a teacher, to false teachers; the Pharisees, holding them accountable for keeping the fruit of their teaching, their children, away from His (Jesus)teaching. Jesus as a man was relying on the Father to bring those He has chosen; to Him. If The Father wants any of the children of the Pharisees to come to Jesus, He will draw (drag) them. John 6:44,65
Jesus knew that all that the Father gives to Him will come to Him. It seems evident that he was, as a man, revealing how gladly he would have taken their children under His wings for instruction; but you (Pharisees)did not desire it.
Jesus is holding them accountable. The verse isn’t proving that man’s will takes precedence over God’s will, particularly, since no one can resist God’s will and He always accomplishes what He desires. If God wants to have mercy or harden, it will be according to His will and purpose.
Romans 9:19, Isaiah 46:10, Romans 9:18
John 6:37
All who the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will not cast out, not ever,
The Father is in control of who comes to Jesus
Romans 9:16
16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One having mercy, of God
Man’s will is not the determining factor but God’s mercy and will is the determining factor
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
13 who were generated not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were generated of God.
Those that received Him were generated of God through the gift of the spirit which does not originate or come by the will of man but by the will of God. The Spirit changes the will of man and causes him to come because once the spirit of Christ is given he has passed from death to life.
John 3:3-8, John 5:24
Matthew 16:17
And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
The revealing of who, the man, Jesus Christ is, was revealed to Peter by The Father
John 6:65
65 And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me if it is not given to him from My Father.
No one comes to The Son, except, The Father draws (drags) him to The Son (John 6:44)
Matthew 24:36
But about that day and that hour, no one has known, neither the angels of Heaven, except My Father only.
Here again, knowledge is being withheld by the Father from Jesus.
Mark 13:32
32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one has known, not the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
Matthew 11:27
All things were given over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and to whomever the Son purposes to reveal Him.
Here, the Father, once again, is the one that reveals the Son to the ones The Father has chosen to give to Jesus and then Jesus reveals The Father simultaneously
Job 23:13
But He is in one mind,and who can turn Him? Yea, His soul desires, and He does it.
Isaiah 55:11
so shall My Word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall do that which I please, and it shall prosper in that which I sent it to do
What God desires to do, he does! His Word goes out and accomplishes that which he intended it to accomplish. Man can’t interfere with God’s will Dan 4:35
Matthew 15:14
Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind; and if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.
Here, Jesus doesn’t seem to be as concerned about the Pharisees’ children which gives more credence to the thought that his purpose of addressing the Pharisees in Matthew 23:37 was just to hold them accountable and show his desire to instruct and teach the Gospel to the Pharisees’ children.
God does whatever His will desires according to purpose for the benefit of the elect Romans 8:28 9:22-23 and man’s will won’t interfere. Romans 9:16 9:19
No one would ever get saved without God drawing (dragging) them to Christ. John 6:44 and in John 6:29 belief in the efficacious atonement is the work of God
The natural man cannot accept the things of the spirit because he is spiritually dead. He thinks the Cross of Christ is foolishness and, consequently, thinks the Cross of Christ or the atonement was not efficacious. He believes he is capable of coming to Christ on his own, making his decision, a work of man, and what makes the difference between Heaven and Hell; but this belief is a result of the spiritual death acquired from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Serpents delusional lie was solidified in natural man. “You will be like God” knowing …
God desires all men to be saved
1 Timothy 2:4 and all men will be saved according to his mercy purpose and will. (Read Revelation 7:9 for the definition of all men )because God does all that he desires Job 23:13 Isaiah 46:10
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Romans 9
Clearly the verses point to the end as well as the means or the making of the vessels by God include final destination
The vessels of dishonor fitted out for destruction by God are vessels of wrath and are being made by God and clearly are not going to be saved ….the vessels of mercy are prepared for glory which are also being made by God. The vessels fitted out for destruction were made by God in order to demonstrate the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy Proverbs 16:4
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IMHO, I don’t see that Roman’s 9 clearly points to the end or final destination.
It seems you are carrying an assumption into the text.
I will readily admit it is hard not to!
Have a great day!!!
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Well, IMHO, you definitely believe in “free will”or freedom from God in your decision …and that your decision to believe makes the difference between Heaven and Hell and The Father chose a certain number of people to give to Jesus; but Jesus didn’t just pay for the sins of just the ones the father gave him but Jesus paid for the sins for all people without exception yet some will go to Hell and is waiting for whoever will accept Him which may be more than the unconditionally chosen Children of promise or the elect given by The Father’s choosing.
Sounds very unbiblical, IMHO and sounds like a God that isn’t omniscient
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Free will does not equate with freedom from God. I don’t understand that how you can make that claim.
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If you will takes precedence over God’s will, then you have freedom from God If God wants to save to you even though you don’t want to be saved he has that right so you don’t have freedom from God
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Interesting.
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What if my will accepts Gods will. Is that my will taking precedence over Gods will?
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His will is always the decreed will. If you come to Christ, it is because he dragged you to Christ, willingly. He changed your will through regeneration
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Dragged me willingly. Seems like a contradiction in terms.
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Greek word for draw John 6:44
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That is a possible translation, yet if correct, it still causes confusion about being “dragged willingly”.
Sort of like a fella giving a woman a roofy.
Eventually she will be willing to be dragged wherever he wants, but that is still considered abuse.
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I think the point is natural man doesn’t accept the things of the spirit because he is not able because spiritual things are spiritually discerned and he is void of the spirit and thinks the (efficacious) (work) of the cross is foolishness
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That is not the point.
The point is that of “forcing” one’s will upon another and still claiming it to be “willingly accepted”
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Psalm 110:3
Your people shall have willingnesses in the day of Your strength; in the majesties of holiness; from the womb of the dawn, to You is the dew of Your youth.
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The natural man’s will doesn’t want to come to the True God. So if God doesn’t make your willing, you won’t come to Him. 1 Corinthians 2:14
No man comes unless the spirit draws him John 6:44…. changing your will isn’t forcing you but freeing you if the Son sets you free you are free indeed
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I need to clarify the term “ drag” That word is used because of the impossibility of natural man to believe the Gospel of Christ which includes the efficacious atonement meaning Christ died for a certain number of individuals and not all individuals and free will is an impossible concept and an oxymoron and a delusion inherent in a spiritually dead man. That is why draw or drag would be used; but God by renewing your spirit through making you spiritually alive, you become willing and do willingly come to Christ. It is not forcing you to come just because he makes you willing and realize you would have never come if it weren’t for the sovereign Grace of God. Free will is something the Serpent caused to be deluded in natural man’s beliefs from the eating of the fruit giving man the delusion that he knows good in other words he doesn’t know the sovereign God who chooses unconditionally and makes vessels of mercy and makes vessels fitted out for destruction in order to show the vessels of mercy what he has saved them from. All to His glory and none to man. The natural man believes in an idol The free will God
This is the fruit of the garden but not the fruit of the spirit. He doesn’t think the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation unto every believing
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The natural man believes salvation is in the power of his decision to believe in the idol The “ free will” god
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Romans 9 consummates in the belies verses demonstrating the whole chapter is leading to final destination of salvation or reprobation
Romans 9:27-33
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That is a statement.
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Romans 9 Who is going to be saved?
Verse 1-5 The Apostle Paul writes about his sadness for the unsaved Israelites according to flesh
Verse 6
The Apostle Paul says not all the of the nation of Israel are Israel (saved)
Verse 8
The Apostle Paul says the children of the flesh are not the children of God (saved) but the children of Promise are the children of God and are reckoned for a SEED (saved)
Verse 11 says the children ( children of promise) (saved)are elected before they do anything good or evil demonstrating that election and reprobation are unconditional
Verse 13 I loved ( elected) Jacob I hated ( reprobated) Esau
Verse 14 Is there any unrighteousness with God ( for electing unconditionally) “ Let it not be
Verse 15 God says He will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy (unconditionally according to His purpose and will)
Verse 16 says The mercy has nothing to do with man’s will (desire) or running (working) but God having (unconditional) mercy
Verse 17 Pharaoh was raised up by God (unconditionally) to show forth His power and make His name publicized in all the earth ( as a vessel fitted out for destruction) (now and later)
Verse 18
So then God (unconditionally) shows mercy and (unconditionally) hardens
Verse 19
The objector once again complains at God ( unconditionally) showing mercy and ( unconditionally) hardening whomever he wills
Verse 20
The Apostle Paul says who are you to talk back to the (Sovereign) God. Does the clay being formed say to the potter, Why did you MAKE me like this?
Verse 21 The Potter has authority over the clay ( no free will) out of the same (neutral) lump to Make one vessel to honor ( mercy) and Make one vessel to dishonor ( fitted out for destruction) ( Here on earth and after)
Verse 22 (One reason God did this) He desired to display His wrath and to make His power known endured with much long suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out ( by Him) for destruction in order that
Verse 23
He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy BEFORE PREPARED FOR GLORY ( destination)
Verse 24
(Now he includes the Gentiles as part of The promise that All Israel will be saved) whom He also called not only us (Jews) of Jews but also out of nations ( Gentiles) ( God so loved the World ) Jews and Gentiles
Verse 25
(Now God is exercising His Sovereignty again )by calling not my people my people and Not being Loved Being Loved ( they might have been hated before)?
Verse 26
The ones that were not called my people will now be called Sons of living God ( Saved)
Verse 27
Isaiah cries on behalf of Israel if the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea , The REMNANT with be SAVED
Verse 28
The Lord is finishing the matter in righteousness (bringing all Israel together, Jew and Gentile)
Verse 29
If the Lord hadn’t (SAVED) left a SEED they would have become as Sodom and Gomorrah
Verse 30
The nations weren’t pursuing righteousness, have taken over righteousness a righteousness of faith, ( by the sovereignty of God and gift of faith to whomever He shows mercy)
Verse 31
But Israel pursuing a law of righteousness did not arrive to the law of righteousness
Verse 32
Why? Because it was not by faith ( which saves) They stumbled at the stone of stumbling
Verse 33
Everyone believing on Him will not be ashamed
( This is where Jew and Gentile come together by the Sovereign will of God to fulfill the promise that All Israel will be saved The children of Promise or the elect ( The seed of Christ)
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Convenient insertions of your belief into the Word of God
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Would you agree that receiving Christ/believing in Christ also known as submitting to Gods law while unregenerate in the flesh with a hostile mind is pleasing to God?
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By the way, you don’t have to answer my previous questions if you are so inclined.
Thanks again
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This comment is two fold.
1) Doubleajwalk – I found your exegesis of Romans 9 to be spot on without a flaw. The sovereign Lord has granted you eyes to see and ears to hear. My spirit was in harmony with yours by the Spirit of God as I read it.
2) just a quick response to the host “consideringthebibletogether” as he says
“consideringthebibletogether
2021-03-16 AT 8:50 PM
Convenient insertions of your belief into the Word of God”
Paul says in response to the host- and this comment coming from one who has not even put forward any exegesis or positive presentation of Romans 9. You haven’t even attempted to touch Romans 8,9,10 or Isaiah 10. Doubleajwalk even threw in John 6 as a cherry on top.
Question to the host- “when if ever will you provide us with some of your sound doctrine interpretation of Pauline doctrine of Romans 9 and Isaiah 10? “
How convenient of you to accuse “Doubleajwalk” of inserting his own belief into the Word of God, when you cannot even see what is clearly written. Doubleajwalk has done everything within his power using the English language to explain Romans 9 clearly for you, but you cannot see or hear. Repent of rejecting the word of Jehovah and believe the Word of Truth!
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I left a comment concerning Leighton’s video yesterday and was wondering why you haven’t posted it in hope you and I could engage in a discussion.
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My apologies. Will check and get back to you.
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I dont see the comment. Could you repost again?
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